Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

I'm a lesbian, I'm proud to be a lesbian, and I'm a little tired of the last few threads I've checked out being turned into a discussion of what "lesbian" means, followed by lots of people trying to reinvent the wheel by asking "well what about this situation? Do they count?". What the heck? Why is that necessary? I want to come here and support others and feel supported, not questioned.


Is it very difficult to accept that the identifier of "lesbian" can apply to many different people with different interpretations, and that we can all find community with one another, even if we don't share the same definition of the word?


I'm so frustrated with the threads right now and I personally feel like we can't get more than two or three people together without it somehow turning into a need to have a debate or prove a point. I really want BFP to be a place where I can find support and community, and lately I feel like all I find is another opportunity to get really defensive. Maybe I'm just having a bad day, but maybe it's more than that.

I interpreted this thread as Kobi's attempt to say "hey, I'm here. Anybody else?" without the drive to have a big analytical debate. I"m seeing a lot of posturing and defensiveness and that makes me really sad. Why is this happening?


Again, let me reiterate that this is my personal opinion, you can agree or disagree with me as you see fit, and I respect your right to do so.

This post really spoke to me.

ScandalAndy - I'm going to use this as a bouncing off point!

Folks, here we have a person who is fairly new to our community who has demonstrated something I think we need to be reminded of. I think many of us are skilled at diving deep within an issue and teasing it out because we have been doing it for a long, long time. We have a certain level of dialog in this community that is sometimes very process-y, sometimes very abrupt. I think that can look and feel really off-putting to people who are new to this space.

Especially people reading a thread title, thinking that the thread is going to be go the direction of the thread title, and then once they enter the thread, seeing that people are arguing or debating over minutiae. I am not saying that type of micro-processing isn't a good thing but I want the "big picture" of the thread to be honored.

Some of us have been super pissed off about the erasure of women with the Butch Voices thing going on. I think that type of marginalization can echo in threads like these where "Lesbian" is being defined for the purpose of the thread as "women into other women" and all of the sudden we are discussion bio men, gay men, Butches who identify as men, trans men, etc.

Not at all saying that men or male-identity issues need to be parsed completely from this discussion. Not into that kind of separatism, but I do think we need to be focusing on "women into women".

[ScandalAndy]

Originally Posted by Medusa

This post really spoke to me.

ScandalAndy - I'm going to use this as a bouncing off point!

Folks, here we have a person who is fairly new to our community who has demonstrated something I think we need to be reminded of. I think many of us are skilled at diving deep within an issue and teasing it out because we have been doing it for a long, long time. We have a certain level of dialog in this community that is sometimes very process-y, sometimes very abrupt. I think that can look and feel really off-putting to people who are new to this space.

Especially people reading a thread title, thinking that the thread is going to be go the direction of the thread title, and then once they enter the thread, seeing that people are arguing or debating over minutiae. I am not saying that type of micro-processing isn't a good thing but I want the "big picture" of the thread to be honored.

Some of us have been super pissed off about the erasure of women with the Butch Voices thing going on. I think that type of marginalization can echo in threads like these where "Lesbian" is being defined for the purpose of the thread as "women into other women" and all of the sudden we are discussion bio men, gay men, Butches who identify as men, trans men, etc.

Not at all saying that men or male-identity issues need to be parsed completely from this discussion. Not into that kind of separatism, but I do think we need to be focusing on "women into women".

Please let me add that I really enjoy the micro-processing. There are a lot of brilliant minds here that have very enlightening through processes and are able to view things from perspectives that I myself am not privy to. I really appreciate that type of approach as well, and I don't want anyone to think that I am attempting to marginalize or invalidate those thoughts.




Getting back on topic from my mini derail, I'm proud to call myself a lesbian, but I"m noticing more and more that younger folks are consciously refusing to do so because they feel the identifier is too restrictive. I'm wondering if there are any constructive and inclusive ways to represent lesbian pride as the wonderful thing it is and bring youth back into the community. Thoughts?

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

Please let me add that I really enjoy the micro-processing. There are a lot of brilliant minds here that have very enlightening through processes and are able to view things from perspectives that I myself am not privy to. I really appreciate that type of approach as well, and I don't want anyone to think that I am attempting to marginalize or invalidate those thoughts.

Getting back on topic from my mini derail, I'm proud to call myself a lesbian, but I"m noticing more and more that younger folks are consciously refusing to do so because they feel the identifier is too restrictive. I'm wondering if there are any constructive and inclusive ways to represent lesbian pride as the wonderful thing it is and bring youth back into the community. Thoughts?

Interesting question. I have an initial response that might grow as I think on it more.

I think there are many ways to do this. For me, it is a multi pronged approach.

The first, is reclaiming the word lesbian for myself. I am a lesbian. I used to use qualifiers and combine terms. Not any more. How can anyone relate to lesbian if we no longer use the word or we qualify it to death? Using it gives visibility that it is still alive and well and perking right along despite what others would prefer to think.

The second, is speaking to those issues surrounding lesbianism. It is speaking up when lesbian is equated with something passe, outdated, not good enough, and all the other negaters that have been mentioned in this thread. It is reclaiming our voice, our power, and our right to be.

The third, is starting threads like this in a zone meant for us. Young folk and newbies need to see lesbians are present and accounted for. They also need to see that we, as lesbians, have similar and dissimilar issues with others under the queer umbrella. They need to see we, as lesbians, can work in concert with other queers on issues we have in common, and we can forge ahead on our own to address those issues which affect us alone.

The fourth, remembering what youth entails i.e. a time to explore and experience, try stuff on, individuals deciding what works and doesnt work for them. As someone who was raised when homosexuality was still a psychistric diagnosis, I am all for taking advantage of the freedoms and options available today! But, all us queers, still need to accept some responsibility for being available to youth who may need us to be there and be visible. We didnt evolve in a vacuum. Neither will they.

[Apocalipstic]

Any suggestions on how those of us who are older and have never been accepted by the Lesbian community (though we definitely qualify, but don't look like we do) can find community and regain our sense of Pride?

[Apocalipstic]

I looked for Butch Femme community becasue I did not find acceptance in the Lesbian community. Though as a Lesbian (yes, a pussy/boycunt/little dick eating one) I seem to be on the fringes in the BF community too.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Any suggestions on how those of us who are older and have never been accepted by the Lesbian community (though we definitely qualify, but don't look like we do) can find community and regain our sense of Pride?

I'm older and other than a few dopes, I have never felt unaccepted by the lesbian community at large. Granted, I was not out as a femme until 2000, and I'm in NY, a pretty diverse queer community.

I don't experience some big monolithic lesbian community from which I am excluded, nor do I have expectations about how I should be embraced. Apoc - you asked how those who do not "fit the stereotype" can be accepted... but perhaps your belief in a lesbian stereotype is part of the problem... are you excluding yourself? Are you allowing the dictates of a few to determine your space? Or your pride?

But if we want to play this out -- what I see as the stumbling block in the decades-long struggles within lesbian/queer women's communities about who belongs/who doesn't, what the criteria is, who get's marginalized, etc is... (I bet you can guess what I'm going to say)... the reality of institutionalized patriarchy and the internalized sexism and misogyny that results among women. Lesbians, as women who were visibly violating the patriarchy were marginalized. They banded together, closing ranks against patriarchal (read male) influence and control. That was a necessary reaction to patriarchy - being outlaws means being clear about who is safe and who isn't. The internalized part is where those lesbians were suspicious of other lesbians who appeared to embody anything they deemed patriarchal - like any amount of femininity, or too much masculinity, or penetrative sex, for example.

We've come quite a distance from some of these limitations, but it's like a rubber-band -- it stretches, then snaps back, then stretches again. The thing that concerns me is when we fight each other at the expense of fighting patriarchy, sexism, misogyny, racism, classism, etc. This brings us full circle to the issue of diversity, solidarity, allyship, building bridges, and inclusivity. My biggest concern about what happened in the BV organization is that they deleted "feminism" from their mission statement. In no way can any queer organization speak for lesbians, butch women, women of color, transwomen or any women if they are not clear about their feminist principles.

I'm rambling... and I realize I'm off the topic of lesbian pride...

Heart

[OS Butch]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Some people regard the term female = sex and woman = gender.

There are definitely butches who define as female, but not as women. I defined that way for many years and know quite a many butch who still does. Here the term woman is seen as being connected to a social construct, rather than it being connected to one's biology.

(Hope you were actually asking the question?)

Originally Posted by OS Butch

I was actually asking. Thanks for responding. For me, I am both, female, woman and Butch to boot! What a deal I am!

LOL! I looked at what I said that someone thanked me..... I suppose I should have written I am all 3, Female, Woman and Butch to boot! What a deal I am!
Seems I left something else out, I am a Lesbian too!

[nycfem]

And you are a most talented stained glass craftswoman!!!

Originally Posted by OS Butch

LOL! I looked at what I said that someone thanked me..... I suppose I should have written I am all 3, Female, Woman and Butch to boot! What a deal I am!
Seems I left something else out, I am a Lesbian too!

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I've been thinking about this passivity too. I think its larger than just young people.

I wonder if social media gives us more connectivity to people we might not otherwise hang with is making us less confrontational? More like we need to not upset anyone.

I think that is some of it. Some of it, though, is a couple of memes that work to stifle the habit of discussion. One is the idea that if you disagree with me you are being *intolerant*. Since very few people want to be intolerant or thought of as being intolerant, they simply avoid disagreeing with others since to disagree with someone is thought to be prima facie evidence of not having an open mind. Another is the idea that we all have our own 'truth' or 'reality'. While this is ostensibly supposed to be the gateway to tolerance it is more appropriately the entrance to apathy. Why should I care if you espouse something anti-feminist if that is your 'truth' and my truth is something else? Just as well for me to ignore what you say and blithely go along pretending as if ideas don't have consequences.

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

Thank you for your insightful response, Kobi.

I have some thoughts about this which I want to stew on a bit more before I let out, but one in particular is overwhelming me.


Pride. I've noticed in my own circles that it has become particularly passe to stand up to people. If someone says something you don't agree with you just respond with "ok whatever" and go on your merry way. I have rarely seen someone stand up and say "no, I am proud to be who i am, and this is why". There is quite a bit of fear surrounding acceptance and I think individuals are less likely to express pride in something if they feel it will alienate them from their chosen support group or social circle. This may be yet another folly of youth, which I am unfortunately subject to all too frequently, but the revelation is stunning to me this morning. This is something I will keep in the back of my mind and tumble around until it is a smooth, shiny concept. I do not want to be a "go with the flow" girl at the expense of my beliefs, no matter how many "friends" I lose.

Do you think it's an affliction of the younger generations to detest conflict so much that they avoid defending their beliefs? To me this seems VERY different from the approach taken by community members who are older than myself. Am I mistaken in this?

I think this is a widespread syndrome much broader than just the youth of our community. That said, I think that it is more pronounced because while most of us over 40 were raised with *some* variation on the theme of 'there are good ideas and bad ideas, there are right ideas and wrong ideas...' it seems that the meme that there are only ideas and no idea is generically preferable to another idea has become pervasive. I notice it in the difference between the how my parent's generation spoke of civil rights and how we speak of our own civil rights struggle. Only now, in the last four or five years, has the queer movement even begun toying with the idea that we are, in fact, engaged in a moral battle and that our opponents are on the wrong side of it. If one actually reads the writings of the civil rights legends, however, one does not see the kind of equivocation one sees today. MLK Jr. never, as far as I am aware, gave even the smallest quarter to the idea that segregationists might have a point nor did he dismiss them as mere assholes. Instead, they were wrong, blacks and our allies were right, and it was just a matter of getting the majority to realize that segregation was a moral evil--not a merely undesirable condition but an actual moral evil.

Originally Posted by Heart

I'm older and other than a few dopes, I have never felt unaccepted by the lesbian community at large. Granted, I was not out as a femme until 2000, and I'm in NY, a pretty diverse queer community.

I don't experience some big monolithic lesbian community from which I am excluded, nor do I have expectations about how I should be embraced. Apoc - you asked how those who do not "fit the stereotype" can be accepted... but perhaps your belief in a lesbian stereotype is part of the problem... are you excluding yourself? Are you allowing the dictates of a few to determine your space? Or your pride?

This is a great point, Heart. When I came out as queer, other blacks used my queerness as evidence that my black identity (and therefore any claim I might have to blackness or black pride) was irrefutably broken. Now, it was already tenuous because I was never particularly 'street' and I certainly don't sound like I'm from the 'hood but coming out as queer was the final straw. Black people are not 'supposed' to be queer so if you are queer you have abandoned blackness. That was (and still is) the argument. For a while, I let that get in my head but then I came to my senses and realized that my blackness is not subject to other's dictates and that before I am either black or queer I am a *person*. We cannot afford to let others get in our heads and tell us that because we do not fit this or that stereotype that some person has determined is the signature trait of some group that we cannot claim membership of that group. That way madness truly lies.

We've come quite a distance from some of these limitations, but it's like a rubber-band -- it stretches, then snaps back, then stretches again. The thing that concerns me is when we fight each other at the expense of fighting patriarchy, sexism, misogyny, racism, classism, etc. This brings us full circle to the issue of diversity, solidarity, allyship, building bridges, and inclusivity. My biggest concern about what happened in the BV organization is that they deleted "feminism" from their mission statement. In no way can any queer organization speak for lesbians, butch women, women of color, transwomen or any women if they are not clear about their feminist principles.

I'm rambling... and I realize I'm off the topic of lesbian pride...

Heart

I don't know that you're too far off the topic, Heart. I think that feminism is non-optional for any queer movement worthy of supporting. Any queer movement, meme or ideology that turns its back on feminist principles should be suspect. By feminist principle, I mean something very simple--to me, feminism at base has one stance "women are people, for better or worse, they are first and foremost human beings" and one basic question "does this help women". If the meme does not treat women as people, then it is not feminist. If it does not have as one of its goals uplifting and empowering women or, at the very worst not doing any harm, then it does not deserve to be called feminist. The erasure of women is one of the reasons I had to pull back from BV. I wonder if some of why lesbian has become so problematic is that lesbian is definitively pro-woman. To me, lesbian and feminist go together in much the same way that life and water go together.

Cheers
Aj

[ScandalAndy]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Scandal Andy,

I probably have more questions here than anything concrete to offer.

What do you mean by standing up to people is passe? Bring them here, we'll whip them into shape in no time

What I meant by that is that standing up to someone or choosing to staunchly disagree is often viewed as "being dramatic" or stirring up drama. If you are disagreeable, you're a drama queen and nobody wants to deal with that. I enjoy these forums because I feel that healthy debate is encouraged.

What does "ok whatever" signify to you? Is it an ok I hear you, or ok I respect your right to think that way, or more of an ok whatever dismissal kind of thing?

To me, it's a dismissal, as in "I don't want to get into it with you, so i am going to leave before things get ugly".

Are you asking if peer pressure affects only the young? In case you are, reread this thread with a different set of eyes .

No, I believe peer pressure is a constant, whether we choose to go along with it or not. What I was asking is whether my observation was on point when I said that older community members are less apt to give a damn what others think of them, and more likely to be confident in their beliefs without requiring the validation of others.

I am not a parent, nor do I have the opportunity to be involved in young peoples lives on a daily basis. It is hard for me to equate what seemed normal to me as a kid and what is the norm today. i cannot speak to this particular experience either

I grew up in an era of being surrounded by protests and movements - gay rights, women's rights, civil rights, gray panthers, Black Panthers, the Vietnam War, abortion rights and probably a bunch I forgot. There were profound changes going on that impacted, in one way or another on everyday life in big ways. (And I wonder why I am tired?) I did not grow up in a political household. I think it would be interesting to try and figure out where my activist drive comes from, in another thread of course.

This stuff spoken to me. It reasonated somewhere deep inside of me. Did my peers have the same kind of cathartic experience with it? No. Did they have the need to address things as I did? No. Did they stand up for themselves or others on a regular basis? No.

I was more social cause oriented. My peers, for the most part, were more social life oriented.

Is it different today?

Maybe it's this current culture of social media and the speed at which we are exposed to, process, then disregard various stimuli throughout our day, but I see fewer and fewer individuals stopping to think and truly ask themselves "is what is going on here okay? Is this hurtful to anyone?". There's a lot self-centered behavior reinforcing the "if it isn't happening to me, then I don't care" mentality. Maybe it's a side effect of geographic location or age demographic, it could be anything at all, I'm just not sure.

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I think that is some of it. Some of it, though, is a couple of memes that work to stifle the habit of discussion. One is the idea that if you disagree with me you are being *intolerant*. Since very few people want to be intolerant or thought of as being intolerant, they simply avoid disagreeing with others since to disagree with someone is thought to be prima facie evidence of not having an open mind. Another is the idea that we all have our own 'truth' or 'reality'. While this is ostensibly supposed to be the gateway to tolerance it is more appropriately the entrance to apathy. Why should I care if you espouse something anti-feminist if that is your 'truth' and my truth is something else? Just as well for me to ignore what you say and blithely go along pretending as if ideas don't have consequences.




I think this is a widespread syndrome much broader than just the youth of our community. That said, I think that it is more pronounced because while most of us over 40 were raised with *some* variation on the theme of 'there are good ideas and bad ideas, there are right ideas and wrong ideas...' it seems that the meme that there are only ideas and no idea is generically preferable to another idea has become pervasive. I notice it in the difference between the how my parent's generation spoke of civil rights and how we speak of our own civil rights struggle. Only now, in the last four or five years, has the queer movement even begun toying with the idea that we are, in fact, engaged in a moral battle and that our opponents are on the wrong side of it. If one actually reads the writings of the civil rights legends, however, one does not see the kind of equivocation one sees today. MLK Jr. never, as far as I am aware, gave even the smallest quarter to the idea that segregationists might have a point nor did he dismiss them as mere assholes. Instead, they were wrong, blacks and our allies were right, and it was just a matter of getting the majority to realize that segregation was a moral evil--not a merely undesirable condition but an actual moral evil.




This is a great point, Heart. When I came out as queer, other blacks used my queerness as evidence that my black identity (and therefore any claim I might have to blackness or black pride) was irrefutably broken. Now, it was already tenuous because I was never particularly 'street' and I certainly don't sound like I'm from the 'hood but coming out as queer was the final straw. Black people are not 'supposed' to be queer so if you are queer you have abandoned blackness. That was (and still is) the argument. For a while, I let that get in my head but then I came to my senses and realized that my blackness is not subject to other's dictates and that before I am either black or queer I am a *person*. We cannot afford to let others get in our heads and tell us that because we do not fit this or that stereotype that some person has determined is the signature trait of some group that we cannot claim membership of that group. That way madness truly lies.



I don't know that you're too far off the topic, Heart. I think that feminism is non-optional for any queer movement worthy of supporting. Any queer movement, meme or ideology that turns its back on feminist principles should be suspect. By feminist principle, I mean something very simple--to me, feminism at base has one stance "women are people, for better or worse, they are first and foremost human beings" and one basic question "does this help women". If the meme does not treat women as people, then it is not feminist. If it does not have as one of its goals uplifting and empowering women or, at the very worst not doing any harm, then it does not deserve to be called feminist. The erasure of women is one of the reasons I had to pull back from BV. I wonder if some of why lesbian has become so problematic is that lesbian is definitively pro-woman. To me, lesbian and feminist go together in much the same way that life and water go together.

Cheers
Aj

Aj, as usual, I'm intimidated and overjoyed when we get to put our brains together.

As I stated previously, I feel there is almost a revulsion attached to disagreement. The oft-repeated "no drama" statement makes me feel that any time someone disagrees, they are seen as being dramatic and are immediately ostracized or dismissed, invalidating their ability to be a contributor. I think there's a huge push to either convert said dissenter to one's own personal beliefs or, barring that, ignore them altogether. I'm not sure where this push toward homogeneity came from, but I think it is fueling the apathy we are seeing. Part of me wants to find out why this is happening, and another part of me desperately wants to figure out how to stop it.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I don't know that you're too far off the topic, Heart. I think that feminism is non-optional for any queer movement worthy of supporting. Any queer movement, meme or ideology that turns its back on feminist principles should be suspect. By feminist principle, I mean something very simple--to me, feminism at base has one stance "women are people, for better or worse, they are first and foremost human beings" and one basic question "does this help women". If the meme does not treat women as people, then it is not feminist. If it does not have as one of its goals uplifting and empowering women or, at the very worst not doing any harm, then it does not deserve to be called feminist. The erasure of women is one of the reasons I had to pull back from BV. I wonder if some of why lesbian has become so problematic is that lesbian is definitively pro-woman. To me, lesbian and feminist go together in much the same way that life and water go together.

Cheers
Aj

Right on AJ. But I will go further than doing no harm and further than empowerment. Articulating feminist principles today should have at least these specific grounding and intersecting principles: linking oppressions, dismantling patriarchy, and women in leadership positions.

[AtLast]

I have not experienced the negative impact that many within our community has via lesbians- my guess is that my experience is very much like what Heart has stated.

Yet, I certainly get how and why so many here have struggled with the term due to their past experiences. Reclaiming and applying what we know as queers to lesbian seems really important to me. There is just not one kind of lesbian and it is about time that it reflects how diverse the world we live in really is.

[ScandalAndy]

Thank you for your insightful response, Kobi.

I have some thoughts about this which I want to stew on a bit more before I let out, but one in particular is overwhelming me.


Pride. I've noticed in my own circles that it has become particularly passe to stand up to people. If someone says something you don't agree with you just respond with "ok whatever" and go on your merry way. I have rarely seen someone stand up and say "no, I am proud to be who i am, and this is why". There is quite a bit of fear surrounding acceptance and I think individuals are less likely to express pride in something if they feel it will alienate them from their chosen support group or social circle. This may be yet another folly of youth, which I am unfortunately subject to all too frequently, but the revelation is stunning to me this morning. This is something I will keep in the back of my mind and tumble around until it is a smooth, shiny concept. I do not want to be a "go with the flow" girl at the expense of my beliefs, no matter how many "friends" I lose.

Do you think it's an affliction of the younger generations to detest conflict so much that they avoid defending their beliefs? To me this seems VERY different from the approach taken by community members who are older than myself. Am I mistaken in this?

Originally Posted by Kobi

Interesting question. I have an initial response that might grow as I think on it more.

I think there are many ways to do this. For me, it is a multi pronged approach.

The first, is reclaiming the word lesbian for myself. I am a lesbian. I used to use qualifiers and combine terms. Not any more. How can anyone relate to lesbian if we no longer use the word or we qualify it to death? Using it gives visibility that it is still alive and well and perking right along despite what others would prefer to think.

The second, is speaking to those issues surrounding lesbianism. It is speaking up when lesbian is equated with something passe, outdated, not good enough, and all the other negaters that have been mentioned in this thread. It is reclaiming our voice, our power, and our right to be.

The third, is starting threads like this in a zone meant for us. Young folk and newbies need to see lesbians are present and accounted for. They also need to see that we, as lesbians, have similar and dissimilar issues with others under the queer umbrella. They need to see we, as lesbians, can work in concert with other queers on issues we have in common, and we can forge ahead on our own to address those issues which affect us alone.

The fourth, remembering what youth entails i.e. a time to explore and experience, try stuff on, individuals deciding what works and doesnt work for them. As someone who was raised when homosexuality was still a psychistric diagnosis, I am all for taking advantage of the freedoms and options available today! But, all us queers, still need to accept some responsibility for being available to youth who may need us to be there and be visible. We didnt evolve in a vacuum. Neither will they.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Heart

I'm older and other than a few dopes, I have never felt unaccepted by the lesbian community at large. Granted, I was not out as a femme until 2000, and I'm in NY, a pretty diverse queer community.

I don't experience some big monolithic lesbian community from which I am excluded, nor do I have expectations about how I should be embraced. Apoc - you asked how those who do not "fit the stereotype" can be accepted... but perhaps your belief in a lesbian stereotype is part of the problem... are you excluding yourself? Are you allowing the dictates of a few to determine your space? Or your pride?

But if we want to play this out -- what I see as the stumbling block in the decades-long struggles within lesbian/queer women's communities about who belongs/who doesn't, what the criteria is, who get's marginalized, etc is... (I bet you can guess what I'm going to say)... the reality of institutionalized patriarchy and the internalized sexism and misogyny that results among women. Lesbians, as women who were visibly violating the patriarchy were marginalized. They banded together, closing ranks against patriarchal (read male) influence and control. That was a necessary reaction to patriarchy - being outlaws means being clear about who is safe and who isn't. The internalized part is where those lesbians were suspicious of other lesbians who appeared to embody anything they deemed patriarchal - like any amount of femininity, or too much masculinity, or penetrative sex, for example.

We've come quite a distance from some of these limitations, but it's like a rubber-band -- it stretches, then snaps back, then stretches again. The thing that concerns me is when we fight each other at the expense of fighting patriarchy, sexism, misogyny, racism, classism, etc. This brings us full circle to the issue of diversity, solidarity, allyship, building bridges, and inclusivity. My biggest concern about what happened in the BV organization is that they deleted "feminism" from their mission statement. In no way can any queer organization speak for lesbians, butch women, women of color, transwomen or any women if they are not clear about their feminist principles.

I'm rambling... and I realize I'm off the topic of lesbian pride...

Heart

I love it when you talk about the Patriarchy!

Yes, I likely have been buying into the stereotype and maybe I need to get out more. I need to let the past go and focus on today.

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

Thank you for your insightful response, Kobi.

I have some thoughts about this which I want to stew on a bit more before I let out, but one in particular is overwhelming me.


Pride. I've noticed in my own circles that it has become particularly passe to stand up to people. If someone says something you don't agree with you just respond with "ok whatever" and go on your merry way. I have rarely seen someone stand up and say "no, I am proud to be who i am, and this is why". There is quite a bit of fear surrounding acceptance and I think individuals are less likely to express pride in something if they feel it will alienate them from their chosen support group or social circle. This may be yet another folly of youth, which I am unfortunately subject to all too frequently, but the revelation is stunning to me this morning. This is something I will keep in the back of my mind and tumble around until it is a smooth, shiny concept. I do not want to be a "go with the flow" girl at the expense of my beliefs, no matter how many "friends" I lose.

Do you think it's an affliction of the younger generations to detest conflict so much that they avoid defending their beliefs? To me this seems VERY different from the approach taken by community members who are older than myself. Am I mistaken in this?

I've been thinking about this passivity too. I think its larger than just young people.

I wonder if social media gives us more connectivity to people we might not otherwise hang with is making us less confrontational? More like we need to not upset anyone.

20 years ago I wanted to be a lesbian Separatist (until I was told no blowdryers and tweezers were allowed ) and now I am having to dig deep to say I am proud of even being a Lesbian.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

20 years ago I wanted to be a lesbian Separatist (until I was told no blowdryers and tweezers were allowed ) and now I am having to dig deep to say I am proud of even being a Lesbian.

In my early to mid twenties, I too, considered separatism as a lifestyle. I too, have gone through years of trying to figure out all of the nuances and politics involved in being a woman who loves women. I too, struggled with the arguments/dissonance of inclusivity and exclusivity surrounding and muddying our communities, as well as forcing us to grow. Guess in this way, butch and femme lesbians are not so different.

I am one who does still use the definition of "lesbian" as a woman who loves/ has sex with women". I truly do feel that anything else is an ally. While I consider that yes, as Lesbians we created a sub-culture within the larger culture of homosexuals, that "culture" is truly "ours". Those folks who find kinship with us are our allies. Because they may be totally in-tune with lesbian music/ art/ literature, does not make them lesbians. These cultural products came out of OUR struggles and OUR celebrations. Feel free to honor them, but do not feel free to appropriate them.

I totally agree with previous posters who have stated the fact that because I choose to define myself this way (in its limited definition) does not mean that I have to oppose other identities. I can be and am supportive of the struggles legal and emotional of other identities. It also does not mean I have to limit my view of what lesbian looks like.

I am a woman ( who happens to have many masculine traits). Even my way of fucking is masculine ( I am told). Does that make me not a lesbian? Does that make me less of a female/ woman? No, it doesn't. I am still a woman in all of my pain and glory and I do still claim lesbian and do still carry that badge with pride. I have never claimed queer ( other than an umbrella term) as for ME, to be queer would be me fucking other butches. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone but me. Now, this is not me knocking butch-butch or (any other sexual proclivity). What it means is for ME, as a lesbian, it would be queer( weird/odd) for me to have that attraction. If I did, I would proudly don the queer mantle! If I fucked men, I would proudly claim heterosexual. If I fucked men and women, I would proudly claim bi-sexual. This is just how I see it.

As a woman, I will NOT be told how to dress, how to behave, how to fuck. EVER. As a lesbian, I will wear a huge cock ( or not), I will fuck with passion, I will wear a hat and boots and drive a big ugly truck, I will write poetry and watch the sun fill our skies with soft pastels. I will build a shed, renovate my home, tend our garden, wash our laundry, fuss over wonderful fabrics and spoil our fur babies. I will help raise our son to hopefully be aware of feminism and help our neighbors.

I am happy to see this topic coming up and happier still to see us beginning to own our pride, in whatever identity we fall into. To say "lesbian" is passe is like saying watermelon is passe. It is still here, alive and well even though some folks prefer cantaloupe or honeydew or mangoes.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Jess

In my early to mid twenties, I too, considered separatism as a lifestyle. I too, have gone through years of trying to figure out all of the nuances and politics involved in being a woman who loves women. I too, struggled with the arguments/dissonance of inclusivity and exclusivity surrounding and muddying our communities, as well as forcing us to grow. Guess in this way, butch and femme lesbians are not so different.

I am one who does still use the definition of "lesbian" as a woman who loves/ has sex with women". I truly do feel that anything else is an ally. While I consider that yes, as Lesbians we created a sub-culture within the larger culture of homosexuals, that "culture" is truly "ours". Those folks who find kinship with us are our allies. Because they may be totally in-tune with lesbian music/ art/ literature, does not make them lesbians. These cultural products came out of OUR struggles and OUR celebrations. Feel free to honor them, but do not feel free to appropriate them.

I totally agree with previous posters who have stated the fact that because I choose to define myself this way (in its limited definition) does not mean that I have to oppose other identities. I can be and am supportive of the struggles legal and emotional of other identities. It also does not mean I have to limit my view of what lesbian looks like.

I am a woman ( who happens to have many masculine traits). Even my way of fucking is masculine ( I am told). Does that make me not a lesbian? Does that make me less of a female/ woman? No, it doesn't. I am still a woman in all of my pain and glory and I do still claim lesbian and do still carry that badge with pride. I have never claimed queer ( other than an umbrella term) as for ME, to be queer would be me fucking other butches. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone but me. Now, this is not me knocking butch-butch or (any other sexual proclivity). What it means is for ME, as a lesbian, it would be queer( weird/odd) for me to have that attraction. If I did, I would proudly don the queer mantle! If I fucked men, I would proudly claim heterosexual. If I fucked men and women, I would proudly claim bi-sexual. This is just how I see it.

As a woman, I will NOT be told how to dress, how to behave, how to fuck. EVER. As a lesbian, I will wear a huge cock ( or not), I will fuck with passion, I will wear a hat and boots and drive a big ugly truck, I will write poetry and watch the sun fill our skies with soft pastels. I will build a shed, renovate my home, tend our garden, wash our laundry, fuss over wonderful fabrics and spoil our fur babies. I will help raise our son to hopefully be aware of feminism and help our neighbors.

I am happy to see this topic coming up and happier still to see us beginning to own our pride, in whatever identity we fall into. To say "lesbian" is passe is like saying watermelon is passe. It is still here, alive and well even though some folks prefer cantaloupe or honeydew or mangoes.

Jess,

This speaks to me on so many different levels. Of particular interest today is how you pointed out that some of us use the word lesbian in a narrowly focused way. Yet, in doing so, the intent is not to take away from others or to be in opposition to others. I would add in to not be in competition with others as well.

I have asked repeatedly in this thread what is so threatening about lesbians, who define very narrowly asking for their own space to talk. I didnt think I was getting an answer. But, I was. I got so caught up in the forest, I couldnt see the trees.

For others, like me, who are connect-the-dots challenged, it occurred to me this morning, that it was people who narrowly define like me who excluded many women and lesbians back in the day.

One group we excluded was the butch-femme community. Thankfully they went ahead and made their own community. Here, those people we excluded found a home, a place to be all that they were.

And, a couple of days ago, here comes this narrow definition lesbian, asking for narrow definition lesbian space to discuss narrow definition lesbian stuff.

Deja vu? Wounds run deep. You, inadvertantly pick at the scars, the rawness of the wounds find the light of day.

Did I connect the dots in the right order?

[christie]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

Do you think it's an affliction of the younger generations to detest conflict so much that they avoid defending their beliefs? To me this seems VERY different from the approach taken by community members who are older than myself. Am I mistaken in this?

Andy -

I snipped your post for brevity -

I DON'T think you are mistaken in your observations of younger generations, but I don't think that its primarily an affliction of LBGTQI youth. I believe its an affliction of youth, period.

We have a 17 (almost 18) year old son who graduated from high school in the spring. I am stunned and disappointed on a daily basis at just how apathetic he is about most things in life. Only rarely do we see him passionately engaged about his beliefs - and I think that part of it is that he is still figuring out what his beliefs are. He has been the instigator at our attending the NOM counter-rally in DC last year. He stood up for a young lady at his school on "purple day" in the midst of a buncha redneck, conservative boys. He has been open with his friends about having "gay moms" and made a point to include Jess as a parent listing in the local newspaper senior edition.

It does bother me that the only thing I have really seen him passionate/engaged about are equal rights and I often wonder if its a direct result of Jess and I having conversations that include him. I wonder if we are failing as parents to expose him to other issues so that he can further explore and define his belief system. It also bothers me that what was important to me at his age is SO far removed from what is important to me now.

I am derailing myself, but to me, you brought up a very valid point about the apathy of youth and I do think that its a very lesbian issue to me as I parent as a lesbian. Perhaps its better in a parenting forum. *shrugs*

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

Thank you for your insightful response, Kobi.

I have some thoughts about this which I want to stew on a bit more before I let out, but one in particular is overwhelming me.


Pride. I've noticed in my own circles that it has become particularly passe to stand up to people. If someone says something you don't agree with you just respond with "ok whatever" and go on your merry way. I have rarely seen someone stand up and say "no, I am proud to be who i am, and this is why". There is quite a bit of fear surrounding acceptance and I think individuals are less likely to express pride in something if they feel it will alienate them from their chosen support group or social circle. This may be yet another folly of youth, which I am unfortunately subject to all too frequently, but the revelation is stunning to me this morning. This is something I will keep in the back of my mind and tumble around until it is a smooth, shiny concept. I do not want to be a "go with the flow" girl at the expense of my beliefs, no matter how many "friends" I lose.

Do you think it's an affliction of the younger generations to detest conflict so much that they avoid defending their beliefs? To me this seems VERY different from the approach taken by community members who are older than myself. Am I mistaken in this?

Scandal Andy,

I probably have more questions here than anything concrete to offer.

What do you mean by standing up to people is passe? Bring them here, we'll whip them into shape in no time

What does "ok whatever" signify to you? Is it an ok I hear you, or ok I respect your right to think that way, or more of an ok whatever dismissal kind of thing?

Are you asking if peer pressure affects only the young? In case you are, reread this thread with a different set of eyes .

I am not a parent, nor do I have the opportunity to be involved in young peoples lives on a daily basis. It is hard for me to equate what seemed normal to me as a kid and what is the norm today.

I grew up in an era of being surrounded by protests and movements - gay rights, women's rights, civil rights, gray panthers, Black Panthers, the Vietnam War, abortion rights and probably a bunch I forgot. There were profound changes going on that impacted, in one way or another on everyday life in big ways. (And I wonder why I am tired?)

This stuff spoken to me. It reasonated somewhere deep inside of me. Did my peers have the same kind of cathartic experience with it? No. Did they have the need to address things as I did? No. Did they stand up for themselves or others on a regular basis? No.

I was more social cause oriented. My peers, for the most part, were more social life oriented.

Is it different today?