Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[Admin]

Kobi and June -

You need to take this line of conversation private. This is not the Red Zone, unless you think this discussion needs to be moved there.


ETA: Clarifying that I mean the personal stuff and not the actual constructive part.

Thanks,
Admin

[imperfect_cupcake]

I'm personally feeling slightly stupid. I thought Michigan festival changed it's stance and let transwomen in. No? ah. ok. I'd kind of feel weird about attending a women's festival that doesn't include all women.

There's a place in wales called Women's Land. Only females are allowed - no male children or dogs - are allowed. I do know the history of how the place got started as I know one of the women who was part of it and left it and frankly, I'm disgusted at how atrocious those women acted to one another, but that's a different story, I'm just not convinced a place that's "all xx females, all the time" is going to be safe by default. That's not exactly been my experience.

I do know some women who live there - I actually do think those gals need a seperate space as I really don't think they are able to cope with outside life and I'm glad they have a place to be. However, I won't ever visit them on Women's Land because - to be blunt - I think the vibe there is fucking nuts. I don't find it safe in ANY way shape or form.

I personally have been raped by a hella lot of men. But I've also been publicly mauled by women, trans and all other rainbow people of every flavour. No matter what the sex or gender, it's been seen as perfectly ok to grab my tits, slap my tits, pinch my ass, pat my cunt through my skirt, pinch my upper thighs, etc. So, due to my experince, before assuming ANY space is safe enough to express ANY sexuality (sexy dressing, nudity, play etc) I'm going to assess it in a covered and protective manner. One of things that has really upset me since going gay-er is nocticing how piggish I get treated by queers (and that includes ALL genders). I have had to re-asses the concept of "safety."

There's a point in there somewhere, but it's probably personal.

[ScandalAndy]

If I had a dollar for every time someone molested my chest without so much as speaking to me, let alone going so far as ASKING, I'd be a rich woman indeed. Gay men think it's perfectly fine to squeeze my breasts, and i've been motorboated by women I've never met.

I concur that there is quite a bit of boundary crossing in the queer community. It makes me uncomfortable, but I'm not really sure how to deal with it as the last time I slapped a gay man's hand away he asked me why I was being such a bitch.

Thank you for your post. I didn't think i was being unreasonable, but there was some self doubt there. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who has issues navigating "safe" space of any kind.

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I'm personally feeling slightly stupid. I thought Michigan festival changed it's stance and let transwomen in. No? ah. ok. I'd kind of feel weird about attending a women's festival that doesn't include all women.

There's a place in wales called Women's Land. Only females are allowed - no male children or dogs - are allowed. I do know the history of how the place got started as I know one of the women who was part of it and left it and frankly, I'm disgusted at how atrocious those women acted to one another, but that's a different story, I'm just not convinced a place that's "all xx females, all the time" is going to be safe by default. That's not exactly been my experience.

I do know some women who live there - I actually do think those gals need a seperate space as I really don't think they are able to cope with outside life and I'm glad they have a place to be. However, I won't ever visit them on Women's Land because - to be blunt - I think the vibe there is fucking nuts. I don't find it safe in ANY way shape or form.

I personally have been raped by a hella lot of men. But I've also been publicly mauled by women, trans and all other rainbow people of every flavour. No matter what the sex or gender, it's been seen as perfectly ok to grab my tits, slap my tits, pinch my ass, pat my cunt through my skirt, pinch my upper thighs, etc. So, due to my experince, before assuming ANY space is safe enough to express ANY sexuality (sexy dressing, nudity, play etc) I'm going to assess it in a covered and protective manner. One of things that has really upset me since going gay-er is nocticing how piggish I get treated by queers (and that includes ALL genders). I have had to re-asses the concept of "safety."

There's a point in there somewhere, but it's probably personal.

[Heart]

Of course women can be shitty and oppressive. Women are human.

But that can obscure the fact that as a group men commit the bulk of both public and private violence and oppression. The vast bulk. Men hold the institutional power (like white folks do) and that changes the game when it comes to enacting oppression.

I too am the mother of a son. He's a decent, thoughtful, respectful young man. I work with numerous feminist male allies. One of the things that makes them allies is that they know they carry male privilege. Without that awareness, they cannot be allies.

As for safe space -- I've learned over the years that it's not created simply by filling it with those who are alike in terms of identity or even experience. That creates a superficial kind of safety. It takes enormous effort to create a safe accountable space. The fact that safe space doesn't always work is really about the trauma of oppression. It is very easy and common for the oppressed to become oppressive. Those in the space must be accountable for their actions and the way they share the space. That's largely the topic in Aj's new thread about community.

Heart

[imperfect_cupcake]

As for safe space -- I've learned over the years that it's not created simply by filling it with those who are alike in terms of identity or even experience. That creates a superficial kind of safety. It takes enormous effort to create a safe accountable space. The fact that safe space doesn't always work is really about the trauma of oppression. It is very easy and common for the oppressed to become oppressive. Those in the space must be accountable for their actions and the way they share the space. That's largely the topic in Aj's new thread about community.

I'll check that out. as I said, I'm not sure what my point was, I think I was addressing half a dozen posts at the same time and not really linking to it - my lazymind and fingers. There *are* a LOT of people who do actually assume that a women only space is going to be safe and that's really not been my experience and a hard pill to swallow. And really really upsetting. It took me a long time to come to terms with dealing with the human aspect of safety, rather than the gender. There was some deep mourning of expectations to be had.

S.Andy - fuckin eh. I once grabbed a butch by the scruff and twisted her collar tight and rammed her into a wall for slapping my tits. She yelled "watch the shirt! I paid a lot of money for it!" my response was "and I paid a lot of money for my tits." I wanted to rip her lungs out. That wasn't over-reacting as far as I'm concerned. It took me a long time to understand I had the right to physically correct people who physically grabbed me without asking. Gender, nor gender presentation seems to make a difference in group space with how much I get grabbed if I'm wearing a low top or a tight skirt.

sulky fag who asked what your problem knew exactly what was wrong. Next time grab his balls and use a vice grip.

[ScandalAndy]

I effing love you, dear! I need to go to honeybarbara's school of personal protection.




I'm still proud to be a lesbian, just not always proud of the way I, or my sisters, act in certain situations.

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I'll check that out. as I said, I'm not sure what my point was, I think I was addressing half a dozen posts at the same time and not really linking to it - my lazymind and fingers. There *are* a LOT of people who do actually assume that a women only space is going to be safe and that's really not been my experience and a hard pill to swallow. And really really upsetting. It took me a long time to come to terms with dealing with the human aspect of safety, rather than the gender. There was some deep mourning of expectations to be had.

S.Andy - fuckin eh. I once grabbed a butch by the scruff and twisted her collar tight and rammed her into a wall for slapping my tits. She yelled "watch the shirt! I paid a lot of money for it!" my response was "and I paid a lot of money for my tits." I wanted to rip her lungs out. That wasn't over-reacting as far as I'm concerned. It took me a long time to understand I had the right to physically correct people who physically grabbed me without asking. Gender, nor gender presentation seems to make a difference in group space with how much I get grabbed if I'm wearing a low top or a tight skirt.

sulky fag who asked what your problem knew exactly what was wrong. Next time grab his balls and use a vice grip.