Breaking the Spell: Rethinking queer community

[amiyesiam]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

Wow. As all of your posts are to me for sure and i know many others Dreadgeek, that is so moving.

There are so many people on this site that are far more eloquent with their wording than i. But, i wanted to try to express my humble thoughts on this.

Is it possible to "borrow" Dr. King's beautiful words and try for the same outcome, so to speak? Is it possible that "we" can utilize his intelligence and heart for yet another step for equality of humanity?

Dr. King says "We must march with dignity and stand tall and brave in the face of violence but we must not be violent back to them. That is the price we must be willing to pay. Many of us will be hurt. Some of us will die. But in the end, we must be willing to pay for equality and freedom with our bones and our blood."

Has it come to this? If we do indeed have to "pay a cost" is this it? Do we march? Do we get more involved? Do we as gay/queer people become more invested and make sure we are known?

I think this is important to think about. If the straight world sees no gain in giving us rights, then we can't expect them to just wake up one day and decide to do it. Knowledge is power and knowledge is how we become more civilized as people, more aware of things that don't necessarily mean anything to us until it is shown before us. Until it is introduced to us in a way that makes us all think, rethink and form perhaps different conclusions.

There are many, many people out there that do this already, i know that. There are pride days, there are gay/queer representatives out there that are fighting for our rights. There are organizations such as BV and BN and many more that are making at least some parts of who we are noticed. But, is it enough?

The point i'm trying to make is this....if we ALL need to take part and follow the words of Dr. King to make change possible by being heard and seen, should we then ALL just....do something?

I admit i do nothing to be seen. I do nothing where my neighbors know i'm a gay woman. Would i maybe change my neighbors mind if their nice neighbor started flying a rainbow flag in my yard? Would they and others slowly start changing their minds on election days, the talk at work watercoolers, the doctrines at church? Would being seen and standing proud to them change their minds? Would it show them that we are ...well, their neighbors?

If every gay/queer person did something to make it appearent that we are here and we aren't going away, wouldn't things start to change? I don't know, but that seems to be Dr. King's message or at least part of it.

It's known to many i live in the South. Within one mile of my house is at least 6 churches that i can think of right off the top of my head. I hide. I admit it. I don't show my neighbors or anyone who i am. I tell selected few about my lifestyle. Not because i'm ashamed but because i'm scared. Or...am i ashamed? God, i hope not. On the news here we have KKK events listed, we had a shooting at a gay friendly church not that long ago, the list goes on and on. The people here, some of them, especially the good ole boys can be scary. Very scary. Just the other day i went to a patient's house and they had three rebel flags on their front porch and a pickup with hound dogs and probably around six men standing around spittin and chewing. I thought then..."wow i'm glad i don't have a rainbow sticker on my car, cause i don't know what they would have said or done". I'm now rethinking that. Maybe i shouldn't feel like that. Maybe, just maybe, i could have made one of them think... "she's gay?" or "She is pro-gay?" Would it have made a difference? I have no clue.

If all of us did something to be seen and take what comes and deal with it for the "greater good" things may start to change. I'm not talking to the ones that do that already and i thank you that do...more than you know, i thank you. I'm talking about people like me who are scared of what may happen. Maybe it's time i get me that flag for my yard, that sticker for my car. Maybe it's time for me to make sure any event in this community that includes the gay or queer i need to make sure to attend. Maybe it's time for me to go to my first "Pride".

Maybe it is time for a change.

Thanks as always Dreadgeek and thank you Martin Luther King, Jr.

Awesome post!
Ok, my gut reaction to outing yourself after reading about the place you went for work yesterday is: NO, I don't even know you but the idea of someone who seems so sweet, nice, and kind being hurt by men/people like that scares the HELL out of me. And maybe it is my baggage to unpack that I don't want the nice ones hurt. Maybe if you were some where different. Maybe if you didn't live alone, maybe I don't want to see anyone hurt. But maybe statistically your changes of being hurt are higher.
We have a sticker on our car and I am out everywhere and yes sometimes I feel nervous when we are out and about. But I have never had to face what you faced just doing your job.
Maybe it's just pony time, but this is really really hit me hard emotionally, so I will have to think about this.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by amiyesiam

Awesome post!
Ok, my gut reaction to outing yourself after reading about the place you went for work yesterday is: NO, I don't even know you but the idea of someone who seems so sweet, nice, and kind being hurt by men/people like that scares the HELL out of me. And maybe it is my baggage to unpack that I don't want the nice ones hurt. Maybe if you were some where different. Maybe if you didn't live alone, maybe I don't want to see anyone hurt. But maybe statistically your changes of being hurt are higher.
We have a sticker on our car and I am out everywhere and yes sometimes I feel nervous when we are out and about. But I have never had to face what you faced just doing your job.
Maybe it's just pony time, but this is really really hit me hard emotionally, so I will have to think about this.

I really have to agree with Ami on this. Sometimes it is just best to not place yourself in danger. It has nothing to do with shame - It has to do with surviving.

We are no good to one another hurt or worse, dead. We need to be alive and safe, so we can continue to grow as a society and hope one day, people will in fact evolve.

I am a Jew and I am fair with light eyes. My sister is the opposite - she is semetic in appearance. If I had been alive during Nazi Germany -- I would not have walked outside with a sign announcing I was Jewish. I would have passed as a non-jew quite easily and used this to survive. It is how I was also able to pass in the Muslim community in the middle east (for purposes I needed to do at the time - I lived in the Muslim community - did not want to live in the Jewish community) and how I was able to pass and witness KKK meetings.

I am completely out where I live. I have always been out - But, I also grew up in Los Angeles and lived in West Hollywood. I now live in New York, and while I live in small towns and have had some issues.. They were never life threatening issues.

There is no shame Belle - In surviving and being safe.

Julie

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by Julie

I really have to agree with Ami on this. Sometimes it is just best to not place yourself in danger. It has nothing to do with shame - It has to do with surviving.

We are no good to one another hurt or worse, dead. We need to be alive and safe, so we can continue to grow as a society and hope one day, people will in fact evolve.

I am a Jew and I am fair with light eyes. My sister is the opposite - she is semetic in appearance. If I had been alive during Nazi Germany -- I would not have walked outside with a sign announcing I was Jewish. I would have passed as a non-jew quite easily and used this to survive. It is how I was also able to pass in the Muslim community in the middle east (for purposes I needed to do at the time - I lived in the Muslim community - did not want to live in the Jewish community) and how I was able to pass and witness KKK meetings.

I am completely out where I live. I have always been out - But, I also grew up in Los Angeles and lived in West Hollywood. I now live in New York, and while I live in small towns and have had some issues.. They were never life threatening issues.

There is no shame Belle - In surviving and being safe.

Julie

Julie and Ami, You are strong women and i admire you both so much.

Trust me i'm no martyr. I am usually afraid of my shadow...until i'm not. I won't go out and buy a sticker tonight, but it gives me thoughts. Dreadgeek's post at the very least has me thinking. I could do things though, without putting myself in direct harm and in a crowd. I could go to events. We do infrequently have them here. There are way more petitions to sign than i've ever done. I always have voted but making other people aware of reasons to vote for someone who supports gay marriage is something i could at least talk to people about.

It's just the idea to "do something". Ya know? I can't expect to sit where i do in the world and fold my hands due to fear and expect other people to march in the front lines of the world for "our" rights.

Thinking and talking about it is a first step.

[Kobi]

Interesting challenge Aj. Life is a series of negotiations and trade offs.

To answer the first part about gaining acceptance, to me, people are afraid of stuff they dont know or understand. It was always important to me to just live my life as I would regardless of who I slept with. Where I live made it a lot easier.

Most of the folks who had an issue with my queerness harbored a lot of misconceptions about who queers are. They didnt or didnt think they knew any gay people cuz the people they knew didnt act like "those other people".

Some folks dont like fitting in or assimilating. They see it as selling out. To me, it was and is a political statement. If people couldnt see me as the same as they were then the chances of changing their perceptions of queers were pretty slim. So, was there any harm in showing that queers got an education, worked, served on committees, took care of their elderly family, drove cars, had friendships and relationships, owned houses, did the mundane chores of existing? Not to me. The harm was them thinking or believing I was different from them.

As for trade offs and what I am willing to give up. When gay marriage became a legal option in Mass, it was a bittersweet thing to me. Nice to have the option for a legal recognition of a relationship and some "perks" that went along with this.

On the other hand, as with anything else, marriage means giving up some degree of independence and freedom. It means different expectations when dating. It means looking at relationships in a different way. It is a responsibility I gave some fantasy based thought to but now it was a reality I had to grapple with.

As for other "concession" type stuff. To me, if I want to be seen as a part of a community, I have a number of responsibilities. I may want to fly a gay pride flag from my deck. It might make me feel good to do so for any number of reasons. But, how might it impact those who live around me? Is that something I should take into account? Is it selling out or is it being mindful or respectful of others? Depends on your perspective I guess. To me, the world isnt going to stop spinning if I cant fly my flag.

I cant think of any situation where you get exactly everything you want without having some degree of trade off involved.

[CherylNYC]

The trade-off with gaining marriage equality is, well, gaining marriage equality. My friends who got married in their beautiful home outside North Hampton, Mass had already been together more than 1/4 century. They had no reason not to get married and lots of reasons to get married, particularly legal ones.

They own two properties together and one of them has had a health issue in the past. They, like all of us, are getting older. Now that it's legal to marry in their state, if they chose NOT to get married they could have signaled to anyone who wanted to challenge the legitimacy of their partnership that they weren't really partners after all. Families have been known to go after properties for lesser reasons after a death.

When we gain marriage equality we give up being allowed to stay together without any legal bond, but with the expectation in a fair minded community, and the hope in one that is less so, that our partnerships will be respected anyway when the doo-doo hits the fan.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

The trade-off with gaining marriage equality is, well, gaining marriage equality. My friends who got married in their beautiful home outside North Hampton, Mass had already been together more than 1/4 century. They had no reason not to get married and lots of reasons to get married, particularly legal ones.

They own two properties together and one of them has had a health issue in the past. They, like all of us, are getting older. Now that it's legal to marry in their state, if they chose NOT to get married they could have signaled to anyone who wanted to challenge the legitimacy of their partnership that they weren't really partners after all. Families have been known to go after properties for lesser reasons after a death.

When we gain marriage equality we give up being allowed to stay together without any legal bond, but with the expectation in a fair minded community, and the hope in one that is less so, that our partnerships will be respected anyway when the doo-doo hits the fan.

Not if your country recognises legal domestic partnership for any sex couples. There may be a registry or you may claim it by filing taxes together.

However, since in both cases the government legitimises one's partnership in order to grant legal rights (which is kind of necessary cause it's more difficult to prove after the fact, in court, the agreed depth and responsibilities of said relationship) there's not a hell of a lot of difference in my mind between them. Neither need a ceremony, both involve paperwork, both are ligitmised by the government.

My mom was the Domestic Partner of my step-dad. She didn't want to get married again. It allowed them legal rights in that she gets his pension now he's dead and they each had their own house, though he lived in hers and let his daughters live in his.

Marriage equality does not necessarily mean loss of recognised partnership in any other way. Many of my stright mates don't opt for marriage as they think it's terribly old fashioned and needless, seeing as there is domestic partnership laws. But they still have to declare their partnership on a tax form!

[Apocalipstic]

I am very Out. I will kiss a woman in public and hold hands....but no stickers of any kind on my car.

[atomiczombie]

I have lived in the SF Bay Area all my life, up until 3 years ago. Now I live about an hour away from Oakland, up on the Sacramento Delta. It's a tiny, almost completely white, tea-party kind of town. Back when I lived in the bay area, I had some not so cool things happen to me, but only once did I ever feel like I might be in physical danger (followed from my car to my apartment by a bunch of sneering teenage boys). Here in Rio Vista, I haven't had anything in the way of harassment.

My old car had an HRC sticker on the bumper for several years, and someone tried to scratch it off at one point (unsuccessfully lol). My new car, which I got last November, I have yet to put any stickers on it. However, I recently went back to the Bay Area to have lunch with a buddy of mine, and we came out of the restaurant to find someone had keyed the front of my car on the hood and headlights. So, even in the SF Bay shitty stuff goes on. There is just less of a chance of physical harm than, say, parts of the mid-west or the south. But it happens. Even in the Castro in SF, gay men get bashed occasionally. Does that mean I think people should be closeted for their own safety? Depends on the level of safety or lack there of. But being in the closet doesn't ever help us get more acceptance. About that I am very sure.

[dreadgeek]

Kobi:

Thank you for this. These are the questions I think we have to address as a community. It is one thing to say "queer people should be free" it is another thing to determine what freedom is and to understand our part of the bargain. As a nation, we've become so accustomed to asking the question "what's in it for me" while ignoring that the other woman is probably asking herself the same question. Once we recognize that others also have agendas and that your agenda and my agenda may not be identical we can then start doing politics. Politics is the art of the possible. Not the ideal. The possible.

Your examples are precisely the kinds of trade-offs that I think we, as a community, need to start asking ourselves.

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by Kobi

Interesting challenge Aj. Life is a series of negotiations and trade offs.

To answer the first part about gaining acceptance, to me, people are afraid of stuff they dont know or understand. It was always important to me to just live my life as I would regardless of who I slept with. Where I live made it a lot easier.

Most of the folks who had an issue with my queerness harbored a lot of misconceptions about who queers are. They didnt or didnt think they knew any gay people cuz the people they knew didnt act like "those other people".

Some folks dont like fitting in or assimilating. They see it as selling out. To me, it was and is a political statement. If people couldnt see me as the same as they were then the chances of changing their perceptions of queers were pretty slim. So, was there any harm in showing that queers got an education, worked, served on committees, took care of their elderly family, drove cars, had friendships and relationships, owned houses, did the mundane chores of existing? Not to me. The harm was them thinking or believing I was different from them.

As for trade offs and what I am willing to give up. When gay marriage became a legal option in Mass, it was a bittersweet thing to me. Nice to have the option for a legal recognition of a relationship and some "perks" that went along with this.

On the other hand, as with anything else, marriage means giving up some degree of independence and freedom. It means different expectations when dating. It means looking at relationships in a different way. It is a responsibility I gave some fantasy based thought to but now it was a reality I had to grapple with.

As for other "concession" type stuff. To me, if I want to be seen as a part of a community, I have a number of responsibilities. I may want to fly a gay pride flag from my deck. It might make me feel good to do so for any number of reasons. But, how might it impact those who live around me? Is that something I should take into account? Is it selling out or is it being mindful or respectful of others? Depends on your perspective I guess. To me, the world isnt going to stop spinning if I cant fly my flag.

I cant think of any situation where you get exactly everything you want without having some degree of trade off involved.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Interesting challenge Aj. Life is a series of negotiations and trade offs.

To answer the first part about gaining acceptance, to me, people are afraid of stuff they dont know or understand. It was always important to me to just live my life as I would regardless of who I slept with. Where I live made it a lot easier.

Most of the folks who had an issue with my queerness harbored a lot of misconceptions about who queers are. They didnt or didnt think they knew any gay people cuz the people they knew didnt act like "those other people".

Some folks dont like fitting in or assimilating. They see it as selling out. To me, it was and is a political statement. If people couldnt see me as the same as they were then the chances of changing their perceptions of queers were pretty slim. So, was there any harm in showing that queers got an education, worked, served on committees, took care of their elderly family, drove cars, had friendships and relationships, owned houses, did the mundane chores of existing? Not to me. The harm was them thinking or believing I was different from them.

As for trade offs and what I am willing to give up. When gay marriage became a legal option in Mass, it was a bittersweet thing to me. Nice to have the option for a legal recognition of a relationship and some "perks" that went along with this.

On the other hand, as with anything else, marriage means giving up some degree of independence and freedom. It means different expectations when dating. It means looking at relationships in a different way. It is a responsibility I gave some fantasy based thought to but now it was a reality I had to grapple with.

As for other "concession" type stuff. To me, if I want to be seen as a part of a community, I have a number of responsibilities. I may want to fly a gay pride flag from my deck. It might make me feel good to do so for any number of reasons. But, how might it impact those who live around me? Is that something I should take into account? Is it selling out or is it being mindful or respectful of others? Depends on your perspective I guess. To me, the world isnt going to stop spinning if I cant fly my flag.

I cant think of any situation where you get exactly everything you want without having some degree of trade off involved.

I can't either, Kobi. There many things that I just don't believe the world will stop spinning over if I don't have my way. And some things are just more important than others and serve building more positive relations among differing peoples.

I love my neighborhood and feel totally accepted as part of it. Exercising common courtesy as a neighbor has contributed to this- BY ALL that I share my block with. I join in with neighborhood Watch and Take Back the Night activities and meetings. I let folks know when something they do has an impact on me (like allowing their dog to bark at night), but also make changes for others when they let me know about something I do- like changing to a lower wattage porch bulb that shines into their bedroom window.

My neighbors see me sometimes in men's formal wear and a couple at first took a double take- then asked if I was going to something special. I have had more than one fruitful conversation about the B-F dynamic as a butch lesbian. I have learned that there are leather straight couples nearby that have had their own share of feeling "different" or weird.

My adjacent neighbors check on me when they see I am having major problems with my joints and pain- and call or stop by and offer to go to the store if I am not getting out. They also stop by and say "Great" when I am doing well.

My neighborhood is multi-cultural and racial, lower-middle class and working class with a couple of professionals scattered about. There are 2 lesbian couples that are main-stream lesbian and me. There are home owners and renters. Our age range is 6 months to 92 a (just lost our 94 you and a woman that was 103).

I don't go naked in my yard because my next-door neighbors have their grand kids over a lot and there is just not good privacy between our yards. I do, however, go in my spa (when it worked) nude because I built privacy around it- for myself and my neighbors. Its called respecting other people. I watch my mouth when working in the yard- which sometimes I have to remind myself, because the old couple behind me doesn't like foul language. It is just not a big deal to me to do this. They have stopped using any poison for rodents around their yard at my request. The stay at home, mother of 3 4 houses down apologized to me after Prop 8 passed in 2010 in CA. She has also talked to me about one of her sons being gay or perhaps trans and sought out support for him. I don't park my car hanging over other people's drive ways, or bang trash cans late at night because I think about my neighbors- and they return this courtesy.

Reciprocity and realizing that we all have boundaries is just important. If I had moved here and not gotten to know my neighbors or assumed that ever one of them was going to be against me or had no interest in learning who I am, I would not be very happy here at all. I don't feel like I compromise who I am at all. I feel like I am surrounded by good people that want to share who they are as well and that I am actually not all that different.

Yes, there is one man that I don't care for and have had words with. Nothing is ever perfect. And I am not the only person on earth. Nor do I want to be. I'm also not a very defensive person overall. I try not to jump to conclusions and figure out what is really going on with people.

I had a situation in which I rented a room to a queer friend in which the person had no regard for my neighbors and had to kick her out. There was no way that I was going to allow her total disregard for community cooperation to ruin my relationships with my neighbors. The compalints were numerous and well founded. This is my neighborhood and she would just be moving out eventually- I, however, will remain here and have worked hard to build relationships with these people. I had to choose between our friendship and my neighborhood. Not fun, but necessary.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Walk me through this, Snowy. In your world, please explain how this works:

1) You walk out your door, your neighbor sees you. What does he do?

Well the guy across the street sneers, the lady behind us looks at us like she's smelling shit or shakes her head, the other two besides us now ignore us and keep their kids away.

2) You walk out your door, your neighbor sees you and sneers. What happens then?

I say nothing, we say nothing. what can we say we can't change their minds about not liking homos and them thinking we're disgusting and going to hell.

In your world CAN your neighbor think a thought that is anti-gay? he ifcan't, why can't he? if he can, what are the consequences of him doing so. You say this is your right to have this. So what does a world in which your right is protected look like?

Cheers
Aj ___________


I moved recently from a world that was pretty good for *me* where I lived, Columbus is kind of a secret cause no one really knows what a great city it is. I never had a problem with a neighbor due to me being queer, not even when I walked out in full leathers. If something did happen the police were there, our rental place took care of it and at work it was no issue since our project manager was gay.


This new world I am living in there is rare times of acceptance, rare understanding and togetherness. This is not only cause of the queer issue I'm stuck in limbo right now because of race and class issues amongst what has gone on here. I feel tolerated but not the the point where it's accepted. Make sense?


I am at the point that I don't care what the neighbors think because I have done everything to be nice and friendly. I don't try no more it's been a year, my kid don't need to be hanging out there because frankly why would I let him? So to answer the neighbors can keep being jerks as long as I am not and I keep working on my house, taking my kid to boxing or any other sport and well packing up going to the beach. Hell even then it's problematic.


I may come back and add more I figured I would come in so it did not look like I was ignoring the questions. It may take a couple more days cause this thread is making me think a lot.

Thanks and sorry if my answers don't make sense

To me acceptance is never changing as for tolerance can and will change with conditions. I hope that changes as time goes on here, people are pretty closeted here if they are queer, they are quiet it about it and discreet I'm not used to it cause of having always lived in areas that were queer friendly.