Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

Cheryl: Okay, what I understand from your post is that you believe using the term "cisgendered" forces a binary system, and that prohibits using the term butch as a gender descriptor. Is this correct? (I have a lot more questions but do not want to misinterpret you) ...
.

That's close, but Heart gave a far better explanation.
"Being cisgendered implies alignment with one's assigned gender, and while I was assigned "woman," and do not disagree with that assignment, being gendered as a woman is not a privilege in the context of patriarchy. That is the crux of the argument. Further, being assigned woman and being a lesbian and/or being visibly queer/butch further reduces the privilege of living as one's assigned gender of woman, adding homophobia to the misogyny/sexism that we live with every day.

Living as a woman (queer, straight, etc) is a risk, and the prefix "cis" can feel like it erases that reality by implying that if we are congruent with our gender, then all is well and we can sail forth without concern. That's pretty much a gross erasure of sexism and misogyny."

Calling me cisgendered, meaning that my gender conforms to the gender I'm expected to exhibit, might pass muster in a simplistic way even though I detest the term. Calling any of my butch partners or girlfriends cisgendered is laughable. I may have been a tomboy as a child, but I was never mistaken for a boy. I may have deliberately put myself in unsafe positions by coming out, but my girlfriends never had that luxury. They were out whether or not they would have chosen it. Their presentation and their masculine energy made them targets and kept them from fitting in. They weren't like other girls. They weren't like other women. Many perceive their gender as butch. That's why calling them cisgendered is offensive. It erases butch women.

Heart did such a great job explaining why it erases us as lesbians that there's no need to further elaborate. I really resent that somehow this problematic term has suddenly gained so much currency.

[ScandalAndy]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

That's close, but Heart gave a far better explanation.
"Being cisgendered implies alignment with one's assigned gender, and while I was assigned "woman," and do not disagree with that assignment, being gendered as a woman is not a privilege in the context of patriarchy. That is the crux of the argument. Further, being assigned woman and being a lesbian and/or being visibly queer/butch further reduces the privilege of living as one's assigned gender of woman, adding homophobia to the misogyny/sexism that we live with every day.

Living as a woman (queer, straight, etc) is a risk, and the prefix "cis" can feel like it erases that reality by implying that if we are congruent with our gender, then all is well and we can sail forth without concern. That's pretty much a gross erasure of sexism and misogyny."

Calling me cisgendered, meaning that my gender conforms to the gender I'm expected to exhibit, might pass muster in a simplistic way even though I detest the term. Calling any of my butch partners or girlfriends cisgendered is laughable. I may have been a tomboy as a child, but I was never mistaken for a boy. I may have deliberately put myself in unsafe positions by coming out, but my girlfriends never had that luxury. They were out whether or not they would have chosen it. Their presentation and their masculine energy made them targets and kept them from fitting in. They weren't like other girls. They weren't like other women. Many perceive their gender as butch. That's why calling them cisgendered is offensive. It erases butch women.

Heart did such a great job explaining why it erases us as lesbians that there's no need to further elaborate. I really resent that somehow this problematic term has suddenly gained so much currency.

My apologies. I interpret cisgender to mean an individual who does not experience body dysphoria. That is my context. To me, identity along the butch/andro/femme spectrum is a completely different kettle of fish. It isn't my place to dictate how others interpret the term.

I do not intend to sit here and insist one of us is right and one is wrong because i don't think it's that clear cut. Thank you to Heart for explaining your position, thank you to you for taking the time to respond to my questions.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

My apologies. I interpret cisgender to mean an individual who does not experience body dysphoria. That is my context. To me, identity along the butch/andro/femme spectrum is a completely different kettle of fish. It isn't my place to dictate how others interpret the term.

I do not intend to sit here and insist one of us is right and one is wrong because i don't think it's that clear cut. Thank you to Heart for explaining your position, thank you to you for taking the time to respond to my questions.

Cissexual is an adjective used in the context of gender issues to describe "people who are not transsexual and who have only ever experienced their mental and physical sexes as being aligned".[1] Nikki Sullivan and Samantha Murray characterized the term as "a way of drawing attention to the unmarked norm, against which trans* is identified, in which a person feels that their gender identity matches their body/sex".[2]

Cisgender ( /ˈsɪsdʒɛndər/) (or cisgendered) is an adjective used in the context of gender issues and counselling to refer to a class of gender identities formed by a match between an individual's gender identity and the behavior or role considered appropriate for one's sex.[1]

SA you seem to be speaking of cissexual, while others are speaking to the definition of cisgender. Not unlike transsexual and transgender.

[ScandalAndy]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Cissexual is an adjective used in the context of gender issues to describe "people who are not transsexual and who have only ever experienced their mental and physical sexes as being aligned".[1] Nikki Sullivan and Samantha Murray characterized the term as "a way of drawing attention to the unmarked norm, against which trans* is identified, in which a person feels that their gender identity matches their body/sex".[2]

Cisgender ( /ˈsɪsdʒɛndər/) (or cisgendered) is an adjective used in the context of gender issues and counselling to refer to a class of gender identities formed by a match between an individual's gender identity and the behavior or role considered appropriate for one's sex.[1]

SA you seem to be speaking of cissexual, while others are speaking to the definition of cisgender. Not unlike transsexual and transgender.

Thank you for pointing that out. I see I was mistaken in my terminology.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I've always known the term to be used in a cissexual way then, when I left the dash site and didn't involve myself in North American gender politics for quite a while. I see it's changed somewhat.

Cisgender ( /ˈsɪsdʒɛndər/) (or cisgendered) is an adjective used in the context of gender issues and counselling to refer to a class of gender identities formed by a match between an individual's gender identity and the behavior or role considered appropriate for one's sex.[1]

I'm sorry... but pardon? I feel like I've grown stupid in the last four years of my life (that's actually true, I do feel that way) but I have no idea how that's supposed to fit very many people. A match between an individual's gender idenitity (so take for example an individual gender - for someone who feels their gender is not described by anyone else and I know a Bucket load of people like that - and the behaviour or role (ok still following) considered appropriate for one's sex. ok at that point I'm lost. considered approriate by whom exactly? My family? my community? my sub-culture? my wider culture? my boss? Which country and what subculture and what community am I in? Jesus you could turn from cis to non-cis in a matter of 15 minutes depending on the people you are standing with. I'm sorry, that too subjective a term for me to really agree with. That would be like considering my gender, femme, to be based on whether my mom and my boss agree it exists as a gender or something absurd like that. and I'm only femme depending on what other people think. In that case, according to my point of view, a lot of trans are actually cisgendered - which seems to have defeated the point of making a word for non-trans people. I'm sorry but I think the term was invented in some kind of subcultural vaccuume.

Good try though. It does bring up the issue of a women's gender(s) being decided by others (if the community decides one is allowed to be a woman or not). Which is extremely degrading and fucked up and happens to a lot of women due to their journeys. So I see the point of trying to achieve a term.

[ScandalAndy]

Hit the nail on the head, love.

I feel I should point out that if we want to bring in the younger generation of queers and activists who are still concerned with equal rights for all, we are going to have to find a way to accept and have dialogue with those who use this word. Not for nothing, four years of gender studies and a minor in the subject, and not once was any terminology other than this used.

Do i still find it imperfect? Sure, but what system of language isn't?

SO how do we get back to being proud of all the members of our community if we disagree with the current language being used/taught?

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I've always known the term to be used in a cissexual way then, when I left the dash site and didn't involve myself in North American gender politics for quite a while. I see it's changed somewhat.



I'm sorry... but pardon? I feel like I've grown stupid in the last four years of my life (that's actually true, I do feel that way) but I have no idea how that's supposed to fit very many people. A match between an individual's gender idenitity (so take for example an individual gender - for someone who feels their gender is not described by anyone else and I know a Bucket load of people like that - and the behaviour or role (ok still following) considered appropriate for one's sex. ok at that point I'm lost. considered approriate by whom exactly? My family? my community? my sub-culture? my wider culture? my boss? Which country and what subculture and what community am I in? Jesus you could turn from cis to non-cis in a matter of 15 minutes depending on the people you are standing with. I'm sorry, that too subjective a term for me to really agree with. That would be like considering my gender, femme, to be based on whether my mom and my boss agree it exists as a gender or something absurd like that. and I'm only femme depending on what other people think. In that case, according to my point of view, a lot of trans are actually cisgendered - which seems to have defeated the point of making a word for non-trans people. I'm sorry but I think the term was invented in some kind of subcultural vaccuume.

Good try though. It does bring up the issue of a women's gender(s) being decided by others (if the community decides one is allowed to be a woman or not). Which is extremely degrading and fucked up and happens to a lot of women due to their journeys. So I see the point of trying to achieve a term.

[Heart]

And there you have it. "Behavior and role appropriate for one's sex" reeks of patriarchal assumptions.

And as far as body dysmorphia: again, it's impossible to be female in a patriarchal culture and not have body dysmorphia, considering the objectification and violence routinely done to women's bodies.

Odd, how gender-studies terminology has managed to side-step the historical realities of living as a woman (whether born that way or not), in favor of a very narrow focus on trans vs non-trans. I get awfully tired of the rareified Ivory Tower approach to gender and "North American gender politics," as HB so aptly put it.

Women transgress rigid and limited gender definitions all the time in order to survive. I'm not talking just about queers, I'm talking globally, about women. Read the book in my sig line. As for young activists -- the book in my sig line should be required reading.

Heart

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

Hit the nail on the head, love.

I feel I should point out that if we want to bring in the younger generation of queers and activists who are still concerned with equal rights for all, we are going to have to find a way to accept and have dialogue with those who use this word. Not for nothing, four years of gender studies and a minor in the subject, and not once was any terminology other than this used.

Do i still find it imperfect? Sure, but what system of language isn't?

SO how do we get back to being proud of all the members of our community if we disagree with the current language being used/taught?

well I see your point but I have to be honest and say that under that definition, cisgendered really means next to nothing to me. it's so other-subjective that I've lost any inclination to bother trying to figure it out. It sounds very othering - as I'm sure the precurser "trans" feels to many women. Perhaps that's the point, to wear a shoe that doesn't really fit to gain perspective. But I'd have no idea how to have a conversation with someone applying cisgendered to me if they had no idea who I was or how I felt about my own gender and all they saw was feminine gender presentation and a female body. they wouldn't know my self concept, nor my gender "role" with my parter, nor how I fuck, nor how I work, nor what pronouns I prefer.

But I'm pretty sure that's how many women feel about the qualifyier "trans" as well. Heart is right, the dichotamy is false and misleading. And frankly I'd have a hard time thinking of when I'd actually use either one in my daily life unless someone told me they self-identified that way. When the fuck do I ever refer to my women friends as trans or cis? never. that's like saying "my butch friend" which to me sounds a bit odd. It's my friend Bill, or Hilary or Seven. I dunno maybe it's only purpose is defining boundaries of inclusion. Like if someone was putting up a dating add. And frankly my local community is lucky enough not to have to use those. Perhaps it's a position of privilege not to have to find further qualifiers.

and yeah, heart, body dysphoria is a pretty awful thing in women - I've had it for YEARS, most of my life. It is different in target than my partner but the pain is quite similar. Learning to live with it has certainly been a challange but being able to claim things without shame has helped, and as I discover more things about myself, the more controllable it gets. It do think it's ultimately about control over one's own body, in the end, in all cases.

And I am interested in that book. Which I oddly never read.