Femme Led Relationships and Trans/Butch/Femme Bottoms

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by softness

I am in a femdom relationship with someone who is slowly transition MtF. It took me a long time to get over myself and deal with the boundaries I established for myself as a lesbian femme in order for me to accept this lovely relationship. Because he (and yes he still uses the H word) was born male and I am lesbian, people have been quite snotty regarding us. (not here) I have to argue my right to call myself a lesbian. These people mainly piss me off because they want our relationship to be pigeon holed under homophobic and transphobic conditions.

I found so much strength beating down my self inflicted barriers and claiming my right to be who I am. I LOVE packing. I LOVE B&D and have even started getting much more experienced in S&M as well. Physically I was waylaid for a time, but its amazing how creative one can get when one is hungry for power exchanges and all that goes with it.

my gurl has the additional stigma of being caught betwixt and between and having his identity and role questioned. He knows he is betwixt and between and thus, is his reason for keeping the H pronoun. I have never met a more honest and real person in my life.

I have had people call me closeted for being in this relationship. Really? How is this any different than all the other twists and turns of any other person in the LGBT family? I am a lesbian, involved with someone who is transitioning to becoming who he is, a female bodied person. Until then, we accept his male body that serves his femaleness. How is that hard to understand? If you can turn on a light switch, you can turn on your mind to accept this too. Calling me closeted was foundationally transphobic. And I wont accept it...

I have tried to be a submissive femme because thats what I thought would make me happy. It didnt. Once I became real and honest, I came out of my own closet and accepted the FemDom in me. I have never been happier...

I am a FemDom. I am no longer struggling with my own power struggles now that I have accepted who I am and have begun living in this life.

fuck all the labels. We all move through many spaces to find ourself and enjoy this human experience. Do whatever floats your boat even if its in that moment.

Congrats! its an awesome journey and one you deserve.

[Sachita]

Additionally Softness I'd like to say....(was in a hurry before but feel this is important)

I happen to not only know quite a bit about female domination but MTF within all of its aspects- crossdressing, sissy, TS, full transitions. Men turn to dominant women because they feel trapped by their desires or confused about how they feel. They turn to a dominant mistress to guide them, relinquishing control in order to learn to love the feminine way. Of course many men don't see quite like that but its true. Sex is a very high frequency/vibration. Many men confuse love and sex because of it. In fact many sexual fetishes are much deeper issues or needs that are expressed sexually- masturbation and fantasy, because they just can't figure out the connection between spiritual and sexual. I'm not saying men are stupid, by no means, just that they suffer from the same thing we all do- a society that has taught us shame and taboos. The divine feminine is an essence present in everything we do. Much like yin and yang, we need this to find balance. You've heard the saying "feminine side"? This is a much deeper matter then most realize, at least in my opinion.

It's a wonderful thing to teach love and thats exactly what a well established mistress really does. She shapes and molds his desires to help him be the best human he can be and THEN he is that for her. She is artful at seduction and calculates her strategy even if it means reflecting his fears and constructive forms of manipulation. The privilege of power requires great responsibly and although many can attempt it only a select few ever really become masterful.

IMO a great mistress/goddess has a spiritual foundation. She must travel through so many spaces- light and dark, so ego must be in check and intentions for the good of all. Otherwise you have unbridled power that can harm everything in its path.

I've been queer all my life. I've had many males slaves and although I don't enjoy fucking them or having partner relationships with them I still loved and nurtured them. I'm just drawn to a feminine essence deep within and then sexually attracted to a masculine form. I have only been able to find this in butch women and transgendered 3rd sex humans. In fact many moons ago I met a boy who was born with a cock but every fiber of his being was feminine. He was submissive and one of the most amazing humans Ive ever met. This past little fling of mine was with a submissive ftm who has the tools to become everything he ever wanted but is trapped in depression. He constantly struggles with who he wants to be rather then who he really is. Unfortunately this is pretty common. As a Domina they are drawn to us because they need "permission" and to void the responsibility even if its really what they desire. Does that make sense?

I keep stepping in and out of the femdom world mainly because it just doesn;t encompass everything I need. BDSM and sexual alternatives is not my main motivation. This is not to say that I can't get kinky- I'm just seeking more of a dynamic then a "thing". The femdom/female led/feminine authority dynamic just works for me and somehow I need to just find the right balance. It's very hard to find the right submissive butch who isn't struggling with hys identity and is not only ok with a woman being in control but needs it just as much as I do.

But if it is any constellation you might feel relieved to know that the BDSM community doesn't get caught up in gender. It's easy to find community and acceptance there.

"Wise men still seek Her!"

[Soft*Silver]

there is alot I wish to comment on but am getting ready to go on a mini vacation with my niece and her two boys. I will not be able to attend to this until at least Tuesday, but maybe later. I will get back to it and i appreciate your response, Sachita. Some I nod affirmatively to and some, not but I value your belief. When I get back, lets do more of this ....

[Sachita]

Softness I was thinking about you, about all this and wondered how your femdom relationship was going. I hope you're having fun being treated like a Goddess.

[Gentle Tiger]

Bumping this thread because the discussion is powerful. I believe it was Dreadgeek who started a thread about how to move forward as a community. I think having these types of discussions is one way. So I hope it continues.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by Gentle Tiger

Bumping this thread because the discussion is powerful. I believe it was Dreadgeek who started a thread about how to move forward as a community. I think having these types of discussions is one way. So I hope it continues.

If you have questions or comments, why not enhance the discussion?

[Gentle Tiger]

Originally Posted by Sachita

If you have questions or comments, why not enhance the discussion?

All in due time Sachita. Process quite a bit. And thank you for the prompting to do so.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I often wonder why butch/trans bottoms are viewed as less than by people? Why is surrendering to a woman so hard to swallow? Yet when girl does to anyone masculine or male id'd or aesthetically looks masculine it's a treasure..

[Gentle Tiger]

I've been thinking a lot about this subject. More questions have come to mind than answers. And I have been on a journey of self discovery as of late. Hence, the slowness to post in this thread. I like to think things through before speaking.

One question that I have is why it is that when it comes to discussing Femme led relationships the discussion can't stay on that topic. Why is it that BDSM, D/S, M/S, what the butch/trans needs, etc. always seems to be pushed to the top? It's like we just can't handle a Femme being in charge. The conversations gets clouded with a bunch of noise, kind of like when there is a discussion about a woman being president or a woman of color being on the Supreme Court. We can't talk about her qualities, and accomplishments. It seems the same here. This isn't the first thread dealing with this topic but the results are frequently the same.

We say we love femmes. We adore them. And yet, we can't stay focused when comes to her being the one that the butch/transman follows. Even in 2011, most conversations still spin around the butch/transman being in charge and the sweet, delicate femme being led and protected by them. Please!

The Femme-Butch dance is just as powerful and beautiful as the Butch-Femme dance. Why does it have to fit inside someone's blasted box? The older I get the more I hate boxes and labels. And I'm old (115)! lol We resent, scream and are ready to challenge anyone when forced by the straight world to conform to a particular box and label. Yet we're quick to judge, insult, disrespect those who don't neatly conform to the boxes that some group defined within the LGBT world. Not all femmes can be in charge inside of the relationship. Why? Because some femmes are followers. They need to follow. That makes them happy. But the reverse is also true. Not all femmes can be followers. Why? Because they are natural born leaders. They must be in charge. Following for too long will make them nuts with a few of my friends, grouchy. You can't have two heads. Someone has to lead and someone has to follow. Otherwise there is no dance no matter what kind of relationship you're talking about. I know, I know. There is sharing within a relationship. Decisions are made together. But even then, someone is leading the discussion.

I think somewhere along the line whether consciously or unconsciously oppressed people bring some of the hetero foolishness into their relationships. And I think we as a community at times still think that the butch/transman has to be like the caveman who drags the woman by the hair into the cave, must be the provider, blah, blah, blah. Now I know some will say this is not true. But isn't it? Think about how Femmes are portrayed. I say this based on things that I read these days and conversations I hear. Why can't the Femme be the one dragging the butch/transman by the hair, calling the shots, and being the boss? Well she couldn't drag me by the hair because I have no hair. But I digress. Those who think that a butch/transman is less than because they are able to let a Femme lead in my opinion have bought into the lie that the male/masculine energy (whatever form) must be in charge. In the straight world a man is not a real man if people see that he lets the woman wear the proverbial pants. And yet most honest men will admit the wife is the boss. She calls the shots. And more often than not I hear butches and transmen admitting that their wife, girlfriend, lady friend or whatever descriptor they use runs the show. So what's the problem. We still haven't let go of the traditional mentality - male means being first and in charge.

A Femme led relationship in my opinion is not about being a top, bottom or flipping. I've always despised the term flipping. I am not a pancake for crying out loud! Ok, back to the subject. It 's about how people are wired. And doing what it takes to dance with joy. I am attracted to and need a strong, brilliant, sexy Femme for many reasons. And understanding that, I also know that if she has the qualities I am looking for she will be in charge. That's part of the dance between she and I. That will not take away from who I am, what I bring to the table, and what I need while at the table. I know this will put me in a less than position in the minds of some. And quite frankly I don't give a flying ****. Ahem! I'm back.

I am a complicated transman. I am strong person. I am a Daddy. I am a boy. I am a leader. And I have no problem with a Femme calling the shots. There are, however, things that need to be in place in order for me to relax and follow her lead. I will not go into them here since I am not the subject of this thread. I have to say this was not always my position. But growing spiritually and just plain growing up has helped me shed a lot of layers and a lot of junk that has kept me from being who I wish to be and enjoying what I wish to enjoy.

Thank you Weatherboi for starting this thread. You have played a part in my journey. So thank you my brother!

[Gentle Tiger]

Yes! Yes! Yes June!
This is exactly what I mean. Thank you!

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by June

In this Femme led relationship, I am very aware that I must earn the right to be in charge of the things that are important to me, and for us as a couple. I have not always been good at negotiating rather than just assuming and taking without giving as much back to her -- But it is a journey and a process to get both what you want and need out of any relationship, and I look at it very much as a Free Will deal.

When she goes out to the car for the ninth time to get something, or brings me something to drink or does any of the dozens of things I ask her to, it has to be because she is getting something out of it. Delicious meals, a pretty house, a nice garden, a tidy non-chaotic environment, reciprocal love, the way I look at her from across the room that lets her know even after all this time, she's still the one.

Awwwwww.

well said June!

when people talk about exchange of power I wonder if they realize the full extent of it or how complex it can become. Wanton boi is very comfortable being submissive, even turned on by it but I also reinforce and nurture that. Although hy is the one fetching things, cleaning, waiting on my hand and foot, I often show hym my appreciation. I am providing a wonderful home, good healthy food and an environment for hym to grow. There's a big price to be with me but I also offer a lot. Hy will tell you that hy feels safe, loved and cherished. Even as friends I give this to hym.

Maybe its just my perception but I don't see butch needs being a priority. Feminine energy trumps masculine in my world. A seductive and willful femme knows exactly how to get what she wants. She doesn't need to do this with force. Women are in control in so many ways even if she's on her knees. It's a fact.

GT I do know what your saying and it may appear that way but I also know, having been in BF culture many many moons, that plenty of femmes rule the roost so to speak. In fact I think femme relationships are pretty common.

As an spiritually evolved woman I have many aspects to me. This includes a sexually passive slut, goddess bitch diva, little girl, brat, seductress, mommy and more. They can surface at any time and demand their space. I allow them to express themselves and nurture my relationships to enjoy them. I don't need to be Mistress/Goddess/alpha all the time, although it does encompass the base essence of me and always present to some degree.

[Sachita]

also Wanton boi says that I have a lot of masculine energy rolled into my femme persona. Even at my most passive this is present.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Sachita

also Wanton boi says that I have a lot of masculine energy rolled into my femme persona. Even at my most passive this is present.

I have to ask, seeing as how this discussion has flowed recently and folks are opening up a bit more, would this be the opposite of what the thread celebrates?

I'm sorry if I'm not wording things well. I can feel the question in my head but it's just not coming to fruition the way I'd like.

I have no issues with masculine energy. Celebrate it, even. But isn't the point of this thread....or at least one of them....to concentrate on the feminine energy in the relationship? Can't feminine energy be aggressive and/or strong without being masculine? If not, then we're right back at the start, saying masculine/male is the only/right way and that feminine/female/femme is secondary.

Am I making sense?

Anyone?

Bueller?

Bueller?

[Gentle Tiger]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I have to ask, seeing as how this discussion has flowed recently and folks are opening up a bit more, would this be the opposite of what the thread celebrates?

I'm sorry if I'm not wording things well. I can feel the question in my head but it's just not coming to fruition the way I'd like.

I have no issues with masculine energy. Celebrate it, even. But isn't the point of this thread....or at least one of them....to concentrate on the feminine energy in the relationship? Can't feminine energy be aggressive and/or strong without being masculine? If not, then we're right back at the start, saying masculine/male is the only/right way and that feminine/female/femme is secondary.

Am I making sense?

Anyone?

Bueller?

Bueller?

Originally Posted by June

Gemme -- I think that when we use "Masculine" energy, which has been used to describe me before, and I have also used it, it's because we don't have the language for describing "Dominant Femme" that fully spectrumizes (tm) what we are.

I have been thinking about that a lot for the past couple of years, actually. It's not Masculine if we're Femmes. It's not necessarily (but can be) Top energy. It's unique and powerful and full of woooooooo.

Gemme, your question makes a lot of sense. And this has been one of my questions. Perhaps I am once again over simplifying things. But why does there have to be additional language? You're Femme. You prefer to be in charge. Therefore, you're a femme who requires being in charge. If you're a femme and you're dominant then you're a dominant femme. And if you're a femme and a natural born leader then you're a femme natural born leader. No additional language needed. It has nothing to do with being masculine. It's still all about being femme.

Now I do recognize that for some to say that they have masculine energy or their male side comes out is an accurate statement. Of course it is! They would know. But that strikes me as separate from the fact that they are in charge or the boss or whatever descriptor is used when talking about Femme led relationships. Help me understand.

It seems that the masculine energy/male side is separate just like BDSM, D/s, M/s, etc. is separate from this conversation. I get that we (human beings) have both male and female within us. But that isn't what makes you the boss right? I know that people describe those characteristics as male when seen but is that really an accurate classification?

Taking a seat to listen and learn. Thanks for letting me be a participant.

[apretty]

Come on now--Aren't they all femme-led?

[Random]

Originally Posted by Gentle Tiger

Gemme, your question makes a lot of sense. And this has been one of my questions. Perhaps I am once again over simplifying things. But why does there have to be additional language? You're Femme. You prefer to be in charge. Therefore, you're a femme who requires being in charge. If you're a femme and you're dominant then you're a dominant femme. And if you're a femme and a natural born leader then you're a femme natural born leader. No additional language needed. It has nothing to do with being masculine. It's still all about being femme.

Now I do recognize that for some to say that they have masculine energy or their male side comes out is an accurate statement. Of course it is! They would know. But that strikes me as separate from the fact that they are in charge or the boss or whatever descriptor is used when talking about Femme led relationships. Help me understand.

It seems that the masculine energy/male side is separate just like BDSM, D/s, M/s, etc. is separate from this conversation. I get that we (human beings) have both male and female within us. But that isn't what makes you the boss right? I know that people describe those characteristics as male when seen but is that really an accurate classification?

Taking a seat to listen and learn. Thanks for letting me be a participant.

For me... My dominant energy is neither masculine nore feminine... It simply is energy... For me the closest I can come to putting it into words is.. I AM... I am confident, I am secure, I am certain.... It has nothing to do with gender or how I ID

Ps... thank you for your post Gemmie.. I came back to respond to it, but decided to do a two for one...

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by Random

For me... My dominant energy is neither masculine nore feminine... It simply is energy... For me the closest I can come to putting it into words is.. I AM... I am confident, I am secure, I am certain.... It has nothing to do with gender or how I ID

Ps... thank you for your post Gemmie.. I came back to respond to it, but decided to do a two for one...

but just for the record those attributes of confidence etc can also be found in submissive energy.

No to deny masculine or make it seem less than but there is something divine and sacred about Goddess energy. It encompasses a natural projection of so many things- bitch, lover, mother, whore....dark and light. The women that adopt this, nurture and cultivate are alpha and solicit control. Its part of their fiber. Calling me a dominant woman barely scratches my surface. I am so much more.

Should you (anyone) ever encounter one that could seduce that goddess essence in you it just might chance your life.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't have anything "male" in my energy, masculine yes but not male so therefore my Woman led, Femme Led, Domina led relationships are simply that. Woman in charge of it all... My masculinity may be there because it's part of who I am yet it certainly is not the Commander of any of my vessels (heh).

I just am.....

Originally Posted by apretty

Come on now--Aren't they all femme-led?
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ```

I would like to think we are a Matriarch run world, unfortunately it's not <sad face insert> what I do see is the thought that girl has <insert pronoun> wrapped around her.his.hys.zi's finger. Which to me is different than actually having reigns of the goings on of the relationship.

We can think we own a panther, the reality is that panther can at anytime turn and make us lunch.

I'm not wrapped around no one's finger, if anything I am the one who pulls the strings for every movement...

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I don't have anything "male" in my energy, masculine yes but not male so therefore my Woman led, Femme Led, Domina led relationships are simply that. Woman in charge of it all... My masculinity may be there because it's part of who I am yet it certainly is not the Commander of any of my vessels (heh).

I just am.....

Originally Posted by apretty

Come on now--Aren't they all femme-led?
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ```

I would like to think we are a Matriarch run world, unfortunately it's not <sad face insert> what I do see is the thought that girl has <insert pronoun> wrapped around her.his.hys.zi's finger. Which to me is different than actually having reigns of the goings on of the relationship.

We can think we own a panther, the reality is that panther can at anytime turn and make us lunch.

I'm not wrapped around no one's finger, if anything I am the one who pulls the strings for every movement...

love this. Exactly how I feel and the reality I wish to create.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by June

Gemme -- I think that when we use "Masculine" energy, which has been used to describe me before, and I have also used it, it's because we don't have the language for describing "Dominant Femme" that fully spectrumizes (tm) what we are.

I have been thinking about that a lot for the past couple of years, actually. It's not Masculine if we're Femmes. It's not necessarily (but can be) Top energy. It's unique and powerful and full of woooooooo.

I'm finding this thread interesting reading and will post more fully when I've gotten my words in order...but...for now, what June said struck me.

There is nothing whatsoever masculine or male about me. When it comes to the bedroom, there is nothing of a Top about me either.

However, I embrace what I call my "pushy broad".

I am all femme, all female, and all feminine....and I am strong, stubborn, willful, and in charge. I am a planner and a problem solver, as well as creative and intelligent. For a long time, I thought I had to hide those things...and I did. At almost 50 and with a long history of deferring to others who generally fucked it up and I ended up fixing it....I don't anymore.

There's a reason I'm a project manager professionally. I'm damn good at it. I organize people, keep them on track, keep them moving, prod them in the ass when they need it (nicely of course ), hold them back when they need that, squelch the ones that need to shut up, encourage the ones that need to speak, and hold their feet to the fire for those that need that, too.

So....think me arrogant if you like...but yes, I generally do have the answer or the vision of what we need to do and how we should get there.

Do I think I'm better or more enlightened than others? No. I am fully aware that other people have skills, knowledge and talents that I don't. And I'm happy to listen, absorb and applaud those things. Professionally, I depend on people having knowledge or skills that I don't....I need them, and I use them, to get the job done.

Personally, it's not that different. I actively encourage the people around me to do their best, develop their gifts, express what they want so we can experience or accomplish that. What I won't do is be a passive partner, sit on my hands, shut my mouth and go along.

For a long time, I felt that the problem I had in relationships is that I needed to find someone stronger than me to be the lead. Now? Not so much.

I'll come back later, after coffee, when I'm more awake.