Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

*Anya* · 08-30-2011, 09:05 PM

Woman does equal an adult female. Is this really in question now?

Honestly....

Slater · 08-30-2011, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia

Woman does equal an adult female. Is this really in question now?

Honestly....

But it is also used as a gender identity. At one time, and still pervasively, sex and gender were used interchangeably as though they were one and the same. But if you allow for a non-binary gender system, then you have to allow for the possibility that there will be adult females who are not women, who are, for instance, butch.

The language of sex and gender has been so tightly interwoven, so tightly tied to a binary system, that trying to pull them apart can create these sorts of usage stumbling blocks.

CherylNYC · 08-30-2011, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slater

But it is also used as a gender identity. At one time, and still pervasively, sex and gender were used interchangeably as though they were one and the same. But if you allow for a non-binary gender system, then you have to allow for the possibility that there will be adult females who are not women, who are, for instance, butch.

The language of sex and gender has been so tightly interwoven, so tightly tied to a binary system, that trying to pull them apart can create these sorts of usage stumbling blocks.

Got it. Yes, I understand that a person can ID as butch as a gender. But how does that equate to being a genderless lesbian?

imperfect_cupcake · 08-31-2011, 01:21 AM

um *hand up*.. I do know people who ID as female but of no particular gender except their own individual thang AND a lesbian. Because they see lesbian as primarily female-female, not woman-woman (but the bulk of which is inclusive of woman-woman).

citybutch · 08-30-2011, 10:09 PM

Actually it is very different.... One can identify as female and be very proud of that... and not identify as woman. Check the OED... two completely different definitions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia

Woman does equal an adult female. Is this really in question now?

Honestly....

*Anya* · 08-30-2011, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by citybutch

Actually it is very different.... One can identify as female and be very proud of that... and not identify as woman. Check the OED... two completely different definitions.

I was not discussing identity. I should have made that clear.

citybutch · 08-30-2011, 10:33 PM

Neither am I. I am talking the English language. Woman and female, by definition, are two different things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia

I was not discussing identity. I should have made that clear.

CherylNYC · 08-30-2011, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by citybutch

Neither am I. I am talking the English language. Woman and female, by definition, are two different things.

According to Websters:

Definition of WOMAN
1
a : an adult female person

Definition of FEMALE
1
a (1) : of, relating to, or being the sex that bears young or produces eggs (2) : pistillate

b (1) : composed of members of the female sex <the female population> (2) : characteristic of girls or women <composed for female voices> <a female name>

citybutch · 08-31-2011, 08:35 AM

The origin of woman is wif-man in Old English as it states in the Oxford English Dictionary. Wif in Old English meant woman. It also indicated how a female made a living. A fish-wif was a female who sold fish. Wif-man evolved into wife-man and then into woman.

I take language very seriously. I identify strongly as female and not as woman. Now, given, this is directly from the OED and you may find other explanations elsewhere. But I take the OED at it's word and it describes itself as the "definitive record of the English language"

Ever listen to that show A Way With Words? Love it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

According to Websters:

Definition of WOMAN
1
a : an adult female person

Definition of FEMALE
1
a (1) : of, relating to, or being the sex that bears young or produces eggs (2) : pistillate

b (1) : composed of members of the female sex <the female population> (2) : characteristic of girls or women <composed for female voices> <a female name>

Jess · 08-31-2011, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by citybutch

The origin of woman is wif-man in Old English as it states in the Oxford English Dictionary. Wif in Old English meant woman. It also indicated how a female made a living. A fish-wif was a female who sold fish. Wif-man evolved into wife-man and then into woman.

I take language very seriously. I identify strongly as female and not as woman. Now, given, this is directly from the OED and you may find other explanations elsewhere. But I take the OED at it's word and it describes itself as the "definitive record of the English language"

Ever listen to that show A Way With Words? Love it!

Without having a subscription to the OED and not owning a copy, what is the current definition of "woman". I am aware that the OED gives probably the most accurate origins of words and you have given a good historical definition/ origin. I am curious and perhaps you could help me, with what they use as the current definition.

Thanks.

Jess · 08-31-2011, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by citybutch

Neither am I. I am talking the English language. Woman and female, by definition, are two different things.

Not trying to make a stink here, but what is OED? I am familiar with the definitions Cheryl gave. Please show me what you are talking about.

Heart · 08-31-2011, 06:35 AM

If one identifies proudly as female, then what is it about "women" that one is rejecting?

AtLast · 08-31-2011, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heart

If one identifies proudly as female, then what is it about "women" that one is rejecting?

I have great pride in being female, lesbian and a woman as a butch. coalescing as one (growing together with my female masculinity) as defined.

However- many butches do have issues with woman, I think, due to life long battles with the societal definitions (norms) and expectations put upon women within our patriarchal structures. Including all of the oppression and discrimination toward women in US society. But, I can't speak for others on this really.

little man · 08-31-2011, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jess

Not trying to make a stink here, but what is OED? I am familiar with the definitions Cheryl gave. Please show me what you are talking about.

the oxford english dictionary.

08-30-2011, 09:05 PM	#1
Anya Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Lesbian non-stone femme Preferred Pronoun?: She, her Relationship Status: Committed to being good to myself Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: West Coast Posts: 8,258 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 39,306 Thanked 40,445 Times in 7,285 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	Woman does equal an adult female. Is this really in question now? Honestly.... __________________ ~Anya~ Democracy Dies in Darkness ~Washington Post "...I'm deeply concerned by recently adopted policies which punish children for their parents’ actions ... The thought that any State would seek to deter parents by inflicting such abuse on children is unconscionable." UN Human Rights commissioner

08-31-2011, 01:21 AM	#4
imperfect_cupcake Senior Member How Do You Identify?: feminine dolly dyke Preferred Pronoun?: Your Grace Relationship Status: I put my own care first Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: In a gauze of mystery Posts: 1,776 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,426 Thanked 9,712 Times in 1,611 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	um hand up.. I do know people who ID as female but of no particular gender except their own individual thang AND a lesbian. Because they see lesbian as primarily female-female, not woman-woman (but the bulk of which is inclusive of woman-woman).

08-31-2011, 06:35 AM	#12
Heart Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Relationship Status: rainbows! Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: NY Posts: 466 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 303 Thanked 2,522 Times in 409 Posts Rep Power: 12032610	If one identifies proudly as female, then what is it about "women" that one is rejecting?