Obama's Public Support of Michael Vick

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

He's done his time, he too should get a second chance.

Hell yes! If white America is still angry with a Black man after he served the sentence assigned to his crime,

White america can see this as an example of it's racism (i.e. Black men are not redeemable)

And/or

Outraged people need to be visible in participating more fully in their judicial/sentencing system. I'd like to see who they are, and participation in developing community standards is a valuable process.

And so much more.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

He apologized here are some of his OWN words from his blog..

"What I did was horrendous. Awful. Inhumane. And I've no excuses for my actions. It makes my heart hurt now to think about what I've done. And I'm gonna be real honest, it took a while for me to get to this place. Sitting in a prison cell didn't make me feel remorse. It was meeting so many animal lovers, speaking with them and looking them in their eyes. Staring at them. Looking so deep into their eyes that I began to feel their pain. Allowing that pain to enter into my body is when I started to understand how bad it really was."

Thanks for posting this Lady Snow. There are some parts of this that really resonate with how I feel about dealing with people who have committed some criminal acts that we see as atrocious in our society. I've bolded the bit that really hit home to me. From that excerpt, it shows him saying that he learned more from educating himself on animal rights, changing his perspectives on animals and their ability to feel, and on rehabilitating himself, than from being directly punished for his actions.

I've noticed a few things with the way some here (both in this thread and others) talk about people who have been convicted of crimes, especially where violence is concerned. I feel that many continue to take an eye for an eye mentality, and the idea that people cannot change or that people don't commit crimes because of their own experiences. What many fail to understand is that an overwhelming number of crimes committed (and yes, many of them horrendously atrocious) are committed because of an individual's upbringing and social situation. This is why many of the people incarcerated for these acts are from marginalized communities; people who come from certain nations, certain neighbourhoods, certain economic backgrounds, who have suffered discrimination a good chunk of their life because of their race, nationality, sexual orientation, religion, gender identity etc. And we perpetuate the discriminatory laws, social practices and environments that often result in these crimes, by claiming that once these acts are committed, that those who committed them can't be rehabilitated, that they must be shunned perpetually, that they are by nature "monsters."

And yet there are countless examples of successful rehabilitation even among the most "atrocious" crimes. Institutions which take rehabilitation over punishment seriously, show very low numbers of repeated offense when compared to the punishment/banishing system.

If a person grew up in an environment where animals were not considered to have the capability to feel pain or despair, or where animals were not treated humanely, then it is no wonder that they continue the cycle of animal abuse. I remember talking to an acquaintance from Pakistan about his own experiences with animals as a kid, and where he partook in animal abuse. He had described an occasion where he and some friends had allowed a cat to drown by not letting it out of a body of water, and how they saw it as a sort of game to deter the cat from getting out of the water. He looks back on it as a really cruel thing to do and regrets its wholeheartedly, but back then he didn't see it that way, and it wasn't alarming to adult society, either. Does that make Pakistani society a society of "monsters" or "sociopaths" who should be punished by the "morally superior" western world? No. Because that is not how people see cats/animals in general where he grew up. He sees things differently now, and not for some racist reason of the west "bringing civility" or some similar bullshit, but because the original frame of reference has been widened and a greater understanding of the nature of animals and their capabilities occurred for him. As humans, we are extremely flexible and adaptable. We are forever learning new things, which utterly change our worldviews.

Many people who grow up in abusive or violent environments become abusive and violent themselves because they perceive it as a part of the currency of that environment. Does it mean everyone becomes that way? No. But many do. If we condemn people without giving them the opportunity to rehabilitate or educate themselves with information many of us take for granted, we will find ourselves continuing to overwhelmingly incarcerate people from marginalized backgrounds because of their backgrounds...which were, in turn, created by discriminatory social practices to begin with.

Does this mean the crime is "excused." No, that is fallacious thinking that assumes that in order for a person to "pay" for a crime they must suffer or be punished. But I don't think that does much good. Instead, what I'm saying means that people are convicted with the intent toward rehabilitation...not to punish them perpetually when they are entirely capable of change.

It's a horrible cycle that needs to end.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Yeah that's how I feel about the Anthony woman who killed her kid yet got no time, she's free yet everyone forgot about her.

He's done his time, he too should get a second chance.

I just wanted to repeat what has already been said earlier in the thread, just for precisions sake: Vick did time for bankrolling a dogfighting operation. He entered into a plea bargain to avoid having to plea on animal cruelty charges. In so doing, the evidence in regards to what actually happened to those animals was never entered into the public record.

Sue

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by suebee

I just wanted to repeat what has already been said earlier in the thread, just for precisions sake: Vick did time for bankrolling a dogfighting operation. He entered into a plea bargain to avoid having to plea on animal cruelty charges. In so doing, the evidence in regards to what actually happened to those animals was never entered into the public record.

Sue

What's your point? I can tell you exactly what happened to those dogs......almost anyone can.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Yanno he could of served 20 years and I'm sure that STILL wouldn't of been enough, I stand by firmly in what I will ALWAYS say: had it been some white football player raping a woman this would of never happened OH WAIT it happens ALL the fucking time and I zero ZERO picketing, screaming, PETA or anyone calling out those injustices Vick on the other hand CONTINUES to be vilified, picketed, screamed at hell his very death in this thread was called for.

Somewhere somehow the value of animals now out trumps that of women and children.

[J. Mason]

Originally Posted by Toughy

What's your point? I can tell you exactly what happened to those dogs......almost anyone can.

Some went to a rehab and some were put down, he hung one from a tree as well, I think its public record if there is research done.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Yanno he could of served 20 years and I'm sure that STILL wouldn't of been enough[...]

Sorry for snipping the post, but just to tag on to that: And that's the thing. What do people think would be achieved with him serving a longer sentence, being banished from the NFL and being perpetually shunned?

Instead, he seems, for all intents and purposes, to be a good example of rehabilitation and is doing work in favour of animal rights now. Had he been dealt with in the harsh way that some encourage, none of the above would have occurred and instead he'd be sitting in a jail cell instead of contributing something to society...which he seems to be doing now with his current activism. The whole punishment system is not particularly productive or socially progressive.

On a side note on the subject of PETA and sexism, I never fail to chuckle when it comes to PETA expressing outrage about any rights issue...coming from the organization that frequently objectifies women in order to get more hits on their website (Seriously, how many times are they going to pull the PETA porn site thing to try to pull in more male supporters? Pathetic, imo), I'm not sure how they expect to be taken seriously. I think for these extremists (and they really are...I don't think any credible animal rights activist should be taking them seriously) animal rights trump everyone's rights (zomg, Obama swatted a fly!).

That said, I'm not sure it should be turned into an issue of women's/children's rights vs. animal rights because...it really shouldn't come down to that. It shouldn't have to do with one rights issue vs. other rights issues, but that the public begin valuing women's/children's rights more than they currently do. Animal rights, unfortunately, sometimes come off as the token "good deed" for the middle and upper classes, much like donating to bogus charities they believe are actually making a difference for famine or disaster-struck nations (which in many cases, the money doesn't even get there). But it's a "feel good" for them.

The public should simply become more aware of the grave and manifold injustices taking place in these cases: for example Vick's case not being simply about animal rights, but also about racism, marginalization and prisoner rehabilitation/rights. And the ability of the public to look at how similar outcries don't always occur as far as well-known rapists (unless some grizzly murder is involved, it would seem), and other discriminatory issues that occur there. I think a big part of it is people being too lazy to change their own knee-jerk reactions to things, and so they pass them off as "not really racist/sexist/etc./everybody does it" and how that helps perpetuate racism and sexism in the modern west.

[purepisces]

I cringe each time I see this thread pop up again. I’ve followed along at various times, but because it is such an emotional issue for me, I haven’t read the whole thing. But it does seem to have turned into a thread more about Michael Vick than about President Obama.

As someone who has worked with abused animals, including pit bulls, the horror of dog fighting for pleasure and money is incomprehensible to me. I know that no one here is validating Michael Vick’s violent abuse & profiting off the abuse of innocent animals (at least I hope not), but it is difficult for me to accept that he deserves “praise” for what he is doing now.

I can appreciate that he is working with the Humane Society. Maybe this has something to do with how I was raised; I was never rewarded for doing the “right thing” or what was expected of me. I was; however, punished when my behavior was found unacceptable. So, I can see that would be my “normal” and is bound to influence how I see the world.

I wasn’t raised by a family that valued the lives of animals. When I was young, my mother had my sister’s dog put to sleep to punish my sister. I’ve seen cruelty to both people and animals. In my experience, someone who abuses animals is way more likely to abuse their children and spouses, as well. To me, violence is violence, regardless of whether it is unleashed upon a woman, child, animal or man. I won’t argue whether violence to a human or animal is worse. For me, I don’t see any reason to compare them. Why would I? They are both wrong.

I hope that Michael Vick proves to be a loyal ally in the fight against animal abuse. Time will tell. I will stand with anyone who will fight to protect the innocent and the abused. I believe in rehabilitation and redemption. But, I also believe that we all live with the consequences of our choices and actions. I can’t forget the suffering he caused, his past doesn’t disappear. Neither does mine. All any of us can do is move forward and do the next right thing. Today is a new day.

[SoNotHer]

Originally Posted by purepisces

I cringe each time I see this thread pop up again. I’ve followed along at various times, but because it is such an emotional issue for me, I haven’t read the whole thing. But it does seem to have turned into a thread more about Michael Vick than about President Obama...

I hope that Michael Vick proves to be a loyal ally in the fight against animal abuse. Time will tell. I will stand with anyone who will fight to protect the innocent and the abused. I believe in rehabilitation and redemption. But, I also believe that we all live with the consequences of our choices and actions. I can’t forget the suffering he caused, his past doesn’t disappear. Neither does mine. All any of us can do is move forward and do the next right thing. Today is a new day.

Well said, Purepiesces. I have a bully girl who was used as a "baiter" dog in dog fighting. We found her dumped on a road side, holes in her body and severely underweight. She managed a tiny tail wag when we approached and then she tipped over. She didn't get back up again until five days later and two different vet clinics worked on her. I'm more than happy to share pictures of her before and after.

So I've seen up close the effects of dog fighting, and I have read the very disturbing details of the treatment of dogs in the Michael Vick case.

Lets let the true healing and awareness grow,and lets let cruelty not be consigned to a species or a type of person or to any convenient target. But lets make cruelty the target and work toward a more consistently kind and respectful way to treat all.


"You can judge a society by the way it treats its animals" - Gandhi

[The_Lady_Snow]

Michael Vick and End Dogfighting

Vick's participation in The HSUS' anti-dogfighting program
The Humane Society of the United States



The following are frequently asked questions about The HSUS' decision to allow Michael Vick to participate in our anti-dogfighting campaign.
Is Vick a spokesperson for The HSUS?

No. He is not a spokesperson for The HSUS or our anti-dogfighting campaign. We have experts on animal fighting who represent The HSUS in an official capacity. Vick has no particular designation or title.
Do you think Vick got a slap on the wrist for his crimes?

If someone commits a crime against animals, here's how events ideally unfold:

• The person committing the animal crime is caught and successfully prosecuted and pleads guilty to a federal felony.
• As the case plays out in the public domain, there is a wave of widespread social disapproval expressed about the conduct and a new awareness of the gravity of the problem.
• The HSUS drives a raft of political reforms to passage, and there is a new attitude and resolve in dealing with this crime across the nation.
• Finally, after the perpetrator is released from prison, he comes knocking and wants to do the equivalent of community service and help the leading anti-dogfighting group attack the problem.
• And that's how the Vick story progressed.
  Is any money changing hands?
  
  No. The HSUS has not received any contributions from Vick, the NFL, the Philadelphia Eagles, or anyone else in exchange for his participation in our community-based anti-dogfighting program. Nor is The HSUS paying Vick or anyone else for his participation. Vick pays his own expenses when he speaks at anti-dogfighting forums.
  Update: In October 2009, the Philadelphia Eagles launched "Treating Animals With Kindness" (TAWK), which provides grants to animal welfare organizations to protect animals. The HSUS was selected as one of the grant recipients and received $50,000 grant, which we used to launch our End Dogfighting in Philadelphia campaign.
  What has The HSUS done to leverage the Michael Vick case?
  
  Since the Vick case put the spotlight on dogfighting, we have worked with lawmakers, law enforcement officers, community organizers, and others to end dogfighting.
  Since 2007, we've upgraded more than 40 laws (state and federal) on animal fighting. The HSUS has trained thousands of law enforcement officers on investigating animal fighting and paid out at least 90 rewards for tips leading to arrests in animal fighting cases. We have worked with law enforcement on more than 400 raids on animal fighting operations.
  We also launched programs in Atlanta, Chicago, and Philadelphia to reach at-risk youth. Hundreds of people have participated in our pit bull training classes, which teach dog owners that their pit bulls can be friends, not fighters. We hope to expand these community-based outreach programs to other major urban areas.
  There is no other animal welfare organization with an entire unit focused only on combating animal fighting.
• While these efforts have put a dent in the problem of dogfighting, there is disturbing growth of the activity in urban areas. We need new ways to address the problem, and we seized on the opportunity to put Michael Vick to work because his celebrity and his unique story have the potential to turn thousands of young people into anti-dogfighting advocates.
  Is Vick handing over a list of the dogfighters he was involved with?
  
  This issue certainly came up with federal prosecutors during his trial. We doubt that prosecutors would disclose any intelligence they gathered from Vick, for obvious reasons. The HSUS never discloses our intelligence-gathering efforts in bringing these violent criminals to justice, although we constantly feed intelligence to law enforcement officials toward the goal of busting animal fighters.
  Since Vick is back in the NFL, doesn't your work with him signal that dogfighting is okay and that the penalty is weak?
  
  Given the penalties available at the time he was sentenced, U.S. District Court Judge Henry Hudson meted out a strong penalty to Vick. He paid a steep price for his crimes, in addition to serving his prison sentence. The HSUS has worked to upgrade the federal animal fighting law twice in the last two years. The penalties are much more severe now than in April 2007, when Vick's home was raided. The HSUS has been pushing for felony-level penalties for animal fighting crimes for years because that's the only way to drive criminals out of this business.
  Why didn't you choose a different celebrity to connect with urban communities?
  
  Vick was a role model for many young people, and he lost everything because of what he did to dogs. His story is the strongest possible example of why dogfighting is a dead end. Just as former drug addicts are able to reach people struggling with addiction, former dogfighters are some of the most effective voices against this crime. We realized the potential that Vick has to reach at-risk youth and pull them out of the quicksand of animal fighting. That said, we constantly attempt to recruit celebrities and others to join us in our crusade to end dogfighting and other forms of animal cruelty. We want to use all pathways to stopping the problem.
  Did Vick approach you or did you ask him to help you?
  
  When Vick was close to finishing his prison sentence, his representatives approached HSUS President and CEO Wayne Pacelle. He dismissed their first offers, but agreed to meet with Vick after considering the potential that Vick had to reach the estimated 100,000 participants in urban street dogfighting. If there was a chance that Vick could save one dog from suffering the same abuse he inflicted, the proposal was worth our consideration.
  After meeting with Vick and hearing him express his remorse, Pacelle consulted with The HSUS' board of directors and staff. Despite our utter disgust with what Vick did and our leading role in making sure he was convicted and punished for his crimes, we decided that shunning Vick forever would do no good for any animal. Vick paid $1 million for the care and rehabilitation of the dogs at Bad Newz Kennels. Now, we want him to contribute his time to attack the problem by reaching inner-city youth.
  Has Vick acknowledged that what he did to dogs was wrong?
  
  Yes. Over the course of several face-to-face meetings and during appearances at our End Dogfighting programs, Vick has apologized and acknowledged the suffering he caused. He has expressed his remorse and his desire to help more animals than he harmed by being an advocate for the humane treatment of animals. We only agreed to give him an opportunity to speak with kids if he was committed to the goal of ending dogfighting and recognized that his past actions were cruel and unacceptable.
  Are you supporting Vick's return to the NFL?
  
  We did not take a position on Vick's reinstatement to the NFL, and we did not lobby the NFL or any team to hire him. We planned to put him to work whether he returned to the NFL or not.
  Is The HSUS going to boycott the NFL or the Philadelphia Eagles?
  
  No. We have decided to try to engage the NFL and the Eagles in an effort to attack the problem of dogfighting. To this end, the Philadelphia Eagles have financed our End Dogfighting in Philadelphia program, enabling it to launch in late 2010.
  We'd like to get more athletes involved, and to urge the teams to invest in this important anti-cruelty work.
  Read more about how The HSUS' End Dogfighting program turns lives around for youth and dogs.

At this point this is what he is doing to make a change and atone for what he did, but frankly from what I have read in this thread that is now going to ever be enough for some folks, and Ender I'm ok with saying that this Country gets on a kick of "what is the cause of the week" and animals have at times to *ME* have out trumped children and women.

[purepisces]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Michael Vick and End Dogfighting

Vick's participation in The HSUS' anti-dogfighting program
The Humane Society of the United States



What has The HSUS done to leverage the Michael Vick case?

Since the Vick case put the spotlight on dogfighting, we have worked with lawmakers, law enforcement officers, community organizers, and others to end dogfighting.
Since 2007, we've upgraded more than 40 laws (state and federal) on animal fighting. The HSUS has trained thousands of law enforcement officers on investigating animal fighting and paid out at least 90 rewards for tips leading to arrests in animal fighting cases. We have worked with law enforcement on more than 400 raids on animal fighting operations.
We also launched programs in Atlanta, Chicago, and Philadelphia to reach at-risk youth. Hundreds of people have participated in our pit bull training classes, which teach dog owners that their pit bulls can be friends, not fighters. We hope to expand these community-based outreach programs to other major urban areas.
There is no other animal welfare organization with an entire unit focused only on combating animal fighting.[*]While these efforts have put a dent in the problem of dogfighting, there is disturbing growth of the activity in urban areas. We need new ways to address the problem, and we seized on the opportunity to put Michael Vick to work because his celebrity and his unique story have the potential to turn thousands of young people into anti-dogfighting advocates.

Since Vick is back in the NFL, doesn't your work with him signal that dogfighting is okay and that the penalty is weak?

Given the penalties available at the time he was sentenced, U.S. District Court Judge Henry Hudson meted out a strong penalty to Vick. He paid a steep price for his crimes, in addition to serving his prison sentence. The HSUS has worked to upgrade the federal animal fighting law twice in the last two years. The penalties are much more severe now than in April 2007, when Vick's home was raided. The HSUS has been pushing for felony-level penalties for animal fighting crimes for years because that's the only way to drive criminals out of this business.

Why didn't you choose a different celebrity to connect with urban communities?

Vick was a role model for many young people, and he lost everything because of what he did to dogs. His story is the strongest possible example of why dogfighting is a dead end. Just as former drug addicts are able to reach people struggling with addiction, former dogfighters are some of the most effective voices against this crime. We realized the potential that Vick has to reach at-risk youth and pull them out of the quicksand of animal fighting. That said, we constantly attempt to recruit celebrities and others to join us in our crusade to end dogfighting and other forms of animal cruelty. We want to use all pathways to stopping the problem.[/LIST]

At this point this is what he is doing to make a change and atone for what he did, but frankly from what I have read in this thread that is now going to ever be enough for some folks, and Ender I'm ok with saying that this Country gets on a kick of "what is the cause of the week" and animals have at times to *ME* have out trumped children and women.

Thank you for posting this list. I snipped a couple things that really stand out to me as a positive outcome from a negative situation.

I hear you saying that animal abuse issues get more attention from the media than abuse of women and children, but from my perspectives this is one of the very few animal cruelty issues that has gotten any national attention, and for that I'm grateful. I would love to see the abuse of women, children and animals get more attention from the media. For me, it's not an either/or situation.

I hope he is able to reach the hearts of those who look up to him.

[SoNotHer]

Thank you, PurePiesces. Thank you very much.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by purepisces

I hope that Michael Vick proves to be a loyal ally in the fight against animal abuse. Time will tell. I will stand with anyone who will fight to protect the innocent and the abused. I believe in rehabilitation and redemption. But, I also believe that we all live with the consequences of our choices and actions. I can’t forget the suffering he caused, his past doesn’t disappear. Neither does mine. All any of us can do is move forward and do the next right thing. Today is a new day.

What constitutes as "living with the consequences"? What positive outcome for society and animal rights do you believe "living with the consequences" will achieve? I ask because to me, this perspective demands that a person be punished, despite that the individual in question has demonstrated a changed mentality toward animal rights and is now heavily involved in animal rights. What do further "consequences" serve here beyond simple revenge?

Also, I don't really think he's being praised by anyone. Evidently, since he is a high profile person, he's going garner more attention than an average person who goes through the same process. I don't see that as praise. The same thing happens with other celebrities, like Pamela Anderson and so on. It's the media doing what the media does, and I don't believe even Vick himself has much control over that.

[purepisces]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

What constitutes as "living with the consequences"? What positive outcome for society and animal rights do you believe "living with the consequences" will achieve? I ask because to me, this perspective demands that a person be punished, despite that the individual in question has demonstrated a changed mentality toward animal rights and is now heavily involved in animal rights. What do further "consequences" serve here beyond simple revenge?

Also, I don't really think he's being praised by anyone. Evidently, since he is a high profile person, he's going garner more attention than an average person who goes through the same process. I don't see that as praise. The same thing happens with other celebrities, like Pamela Anderson and so on. It's the media doing what the media does, and I don't believe even Vick himself has much control over that.

Originally Posted by Toughy

I'm very happy he has his own show. He has been working hard (in partnership with the Humane Society and others) across the country to end dog fighting. This show sounds like it will be another way for him to get the message of redemption and forgiveness out to others.
People can and do change. Vick deserves praise for what he is now doing.

Ender- I never said that I believe that there is a “positive outcome” for Vick to live with the consequences of his actions. It is just a fact of life. Our choices, our actions, are not in a vacuum. The effect of all we do ripples out in ways we never imagine as we go about our daily lives. By “consequences” I wasn’t referring to any type of “punishment” but simply the fact that the choices he made will continue to impact him.

There are people who won’t support any team that he plays for, who won’t buy products from companies that endorse him and they have every right to express their opinion that way. Just like there are people who will praise him for the changes that they see in him and the work he is doing now and they have every right to express their opinion. There are people who don’t give a crap about him one way or another. It seems to me that “living with the consequences” for Vick will include the fact that dog fighting will be associated with his name for the rest of his life. He will have to find a way to make his peace with that, and it doesn’t have anything to do with revenge, it’s just life.

My comment about praise was in response to several posts in this thread that referred to Vick’s work with the Humane Society, etc. I’ve quoted a post from Toughy that specifically states Vick should be praised. I don’t share that feeling, but, as I said, I appreciate what he is doing, the changes he has made and hope that he will turn out to be a lifelong advocate against animal abuse.

And, I do agree with you about the media.

[The_Lady_Snow]

• Paris Hilton: She has a history of acquiring animal accessories, then forgetting them—one kitten was hit by a car and employees say she abandons animals in closets to die.

• Gerard Butler: Aside from maybe-dating Jennifer Aniston, he's also accused of punching a dog in the face after it touched noses with his pug. He claims the dog attacked first.

• Jesse James: Other personal foibles aside, the biker is accused of fighting his pit bulls to near-death.

• Mike Tyson- PETA asked prosecutors to investigate Mike Tyson's Animal Planet reality TV show about pigeon racing, saying the races likely involve illegal gambling and cruelty to animals. Mike Tyson has apparently been raising pigeons since he was little, but this will be his first venture into racing them. The important thing to take away here is that Mike Tyson raises pigeons.

• Jon Gosselin- made the honest mistake of talking about how his kids treat the family dogs, saying, “Those kids beat them up, climb on them, pull their tails, bite at them, drag them around and everything you can imagine not to do to an animal.” Animal activists got all up in his business and Gosselin issued another statement saying, “We understand the responsibilities of being good dog owners. Whenever my kids are with Shoka and Nala, everyone is carefully supervised to ensure that no one—dog or child—is injured.” That's just how kids are with animals. I used to get knocked on my butt by our German Shepherd and I would turn around and spank him. Just as Jesus would have done, had he been a toddler with a large dog, when the couple broke up the dogs were taken back to the kennel cause Kate couldn't handle them.

Kim Kardashian thinks she's a momma cat and can pose with

a cat by the scruff for spank bank material

[SoNotHer]

And this all sucks as does the other parts of Vick's history. Frankly, who wants genital herpes (Yipee!) given to them and who wants their bank stiffed for a loan default or the rental of 130 cars, never mind the other incredibly bad financial decisions.

If were going to pretend that athletes aren't role models, we don't have common ground to start a discussion. And if were going to pretend that most people, including my students who have had Vick's background and then some, are afforded the second most lucrative contract in sports and get the opportunities that Vick has been afforded, then I really have no common point to begin here.

We are all responsible for actions, and if we can't be trusted in a position of power over an elderly person, or a child, or a partner, or a dog, then we really don't deserve that power.



[QUOTE=The_Lady_Snow;427684]

• Paris Hilton: She has a history of acquiring animal accessories, then forgetting them—one kitten was hit by a car and employees say she abandons animals in closets to die.

• Gerard Butler: Aside from maybe-dating Jennifer Aniston, he's also accused of punching a dog in the face after it touched noses with his pug. He claims the dog attacked first.

[SoNotHer]

Huh? Then I wonder why a Google search for the phrase "Praise for Michael Vick" just cached 9.56 M results. Hmmmm....

And if $100 million for your professional existence isn't considered praise, I'll take it.

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Also, I don't really think he's being praised by anyone.

[Toughy]

The right thing to do is to not dog fight. Vick is doing the right thing by not participating in dog fighting.

He deserves praise because is has gone beyond the right thing and is trying to stop urban dog fighting. He does not have to do that. He could have served his time and not done anything else.

He is a role model for kids and his story is an example that can give kids (and adults) hope for rehabilitation and leading a productive life.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Yeah that's how I feel about the Anthony woman who killed her kid yet got no time, she's free yet everyone forgot about her.

[He's done his time, he too should get a second chance.

QUOTE=suebee;425403]I just wanted to repeat what has already been said earlier in the thread, just for precisions sake: Vick did time for bankrolling a dogfighting operation. He entered into a plea bargain to avoid having to plea on animal cruelty charges. In so doing, the evidence in regards to what actually happened to those animals was never entered into the public record.

Sue[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Toughy

What's your point? I can tell you exactly what happened to those dogs......almost anyone can.

My point was really simple Toughy. It was in answer to Snowy's comment that "he's done his time". He agreed to plead guilty to bankrolling a dog fighting operation to AVOID being tried for the animal abuse charge. You and I may know what happen to those dogs. But I doubt that everybody does. That was the point of avoiding a trial. The violence and cruelty that was shown by Vick and others is horrendous. It was strategic on his part to plead guilty to a crime that would seem less offensive.

Here's what I agree with: Others are guilty of equally horrendous cries or worse and get away with it. They may not be stigmatized as much as Vick, may even go free - and yes, race has always got to be considered a mitigating factor.

Here's what I'm feeling in this thread: As laudible as his anti-dog fighting efforts may be, he inflicted horrendous suffering on those animals. Neither his community service nor the racial aspect of unequal justice for people of colour changes that. I'm involved in animal rescue on a regular basis, and when I hear Vick's name there are some pretty fucking awful images that come into my mind. That probably isn't the case for everyone, but is is for me and most of the people I spend time with. I just feel that the victims of this case are being pretty much forgotten. I don't want to hear that they're "just dogs", or that they're not equal to humans. I don't think that mattered a damn to them when they were suffering.

I'm not really interested in starting a big conversation on the topic. I seem to be one of the few that has participated on this thread that is of this mindset. I'm just responding to Toughy's question.

Sue

[The_Lady_Snow]

So how long should he be reminded over and over and over and over of what he did? Cause what he's trying to do now and being honest about it isn't good enough, what would be a good way to solve this for you sue? What would be a proper punishment that would make you feel the victims were *vindicated*?


I am fully aware of what the charges were and that he got lesser charges, I am going to assume he was offered that if he cooperated with authorities that's how it tends to work in our system, so should he spend more time in jail because some people feel he should? Should he not entered a plea bargain if it was given to him?

How much more do you want him to pay? You seem to avoid that question..