OCCUPY WALL STREET

[Cin]

Seems to be going well.

6:38p.m. ET: ABC News' Gregory J. Krieg reports: The march has passed through a narrow corridor along Park Row and back south down Broadway from Foley Square, returning to Zuccotti Park. We've heard reports on crowd size ranging from 2,000 (an officer guessed) and 15,000 (organizers guessed). I'd say it's much closer to the latter. And for every protester, there must be two metal barriers. This is a very tightly-held rage.

[SoNotHer]

Well said, Miss Tick. Well said, indeed. We've watched companies like Enron lead their employees down the garden path. We've watched companies like Walmart lock in employees overnight, ensure that no woman was promoted past a certain point and no union was ever formed. We've watched states like Wisconsin dismantle the collective bargaining rights of workers and other states try. We've watched companies bet for/against sub prime mortgage packages, make and lose more money than most of us can imagine, be bailed out and be more profitable than ever, all while the American worker's salary stagnates or s/he drowns in underwater mortgages, medical bankruptcy, job loss and 401K plans that have been all but wiped out.

When do we stop letting the needs of a few outweigh the needs of many?

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

This is a very tightly-held rage.

[Corkey]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/10...ng-unemployed/

From the horses ass mouth himself

[SoNotHer]

Well, at least he didn't tell the unemployed to "eat cake."

Or did he?

Originally Posted by Corkey

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/10...ng-unemployed/

From the horses ass mouth himself

[Corkey]

I think it was implied. Where a frenchman when you need one?
Wait Maddow made it official with the Marie Antoinette reference.

[SoNotHer]

Did she? Do you have that link as well?

Originally Posted by Corkey

I think it was implied. Where a frenchman when you need one?
Wait Maddow made it official with the Marie Antoinette reference.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by SoNotHer

Did she? Do you have that link as well?

We're in the east, she's on at 9 pm on MSNBC, otherwise one would have to wait til tomorrow.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by SoNotHer

Well, at least he didn't tell the unemployed to "eat cake."

Or did he?

And they can have ketchup for a vegetable.

[SoNotHer]

That was an interesting WP article, Miss Tick. The only television I watch (or am subjected to) is at the gym. But I actually would be interested in that series entitled "Revenge." I had not heard the term "prosperity gospel" before.

What a time we live in.

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

And they can have ketchup for a vegetable.

[Cin]

You know when i read this crap about unemployment being the fault of the unemployed and I hear about people clapping and cheering at the possible death of an uninsured person or booing a gay soldier in Iraq I start to think it isn't just Wall Street we need to occupy. We need to occupy a moral high ground. Our nation's moral compass has lost the ability to find true north. We need a national conscience. We need to take back our humanity.

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

You know when i read this crap about unemployment being the fault of the unemployed and I hear about people clapping and cheering at the possible death of an uninsured person or booing a gay soldier in Iraq I start to think it isn't just Wall Street we need to occupy. We need to occupy a moral high ground. Our nation's moral compass has lost the ability to find true north. We need a national conscience. We need to take back our humanity.

Oh Hell YA!!

[SoNotHer]

Oh well said. Are you writing about this stuff in a blog or leading a group? If not, you should be.

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

You know when i read this crap about unemployment being the fault of the unemployed and I hear about people clapping and cheering at the possible death of an uninsured person or booing a gay soldier in Iraq I start to think it isn't just Wall Street we need to occupy. We need to occupy a moral high ground. Our nation's moral compass has lost the ability to find true north. We need a national conscience. We need to take back our humanity.

[SoNotHer]

And don't forget the applause Rick Perry got for standing up for the death penalty, the final statement on race, poverty and the economic rock tumbler otherwise known as the "free market."

Interesting choice the one percent has made in making a growing angry majority its enemy.

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

You know when i read this crap about unemployment being the fault of the unemployed and I hear about people clapping and cheering at the possible death of an uninsured person or booing a gay soldier in Iraq I start to think it isn't just Wall Street we need to occupy. We need to occupy a moral high ground. Our nation's moral compass has lost the ability to find true north. We need a national conscience. We need to take back our humanity.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

You know when i read this crap about unemployment being the fault of the unemployed and I hear about people clapping and cheering at the possible death of an uninsured person or booing a gay soldier in Iraq I start to think it isn't just Wall Street we need to occupy. We need to occupy a moral high ground. Our nation's moral compass has lost the ability to find true north. We need a national conscience. We need to take back our humanity.

Morality is the last thing needed. "Morality" (an abstract concept at best, and subjective as hell) is part of what created a situation where people boo gay soldiers and cheer the death or misfortunes of the poor and the homeless. We need a little less "morality" and a little more logic and education. Because when it comes down to it there's no fact-based logic to hating someone based on their sexual orientation. No logic in leaving people to die, to be homeless, to starve. All these things are bad for any nation's economy in the long run, and people are finding that out the hard way. If you turn it into a battle of morals instead of turning it into a chance to educate, then you're just fighting the same "no we're right!" "no, we're right!" battle that the ruling class and the common people have been fighting since the dawn of time.

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

You know when i read this crap about unemployment being the fault of the unemployed and I hear about people clapping and cheering at the possible death of an uninsured person or booing a gay soldier in Iraq I start to think it isn't just Wall Street we need to occupy. We need to occupy a moral high ground. Our nation's moral compass has lost the ability to find true north. We need a national conscience. We need to take back our humanity.

Do you really think these people don't know what true north is ? Do you really think they don't know what is right and wrong. Of course they do. Of course they know you shouldn't do something to someone, you wouldn't want done to you. People with character and standards, and morals and ethics don't need a compass, they will do the right thing because that's who they are. They choose to do the right thing , not because of fear tactics or consequences, they do it because it's right. People who lack character, have no morals, no conscience,just don't care. They know what the right thing to do is, but unless it serves them in some way to do the right thing ,or it's easier than doing the wrong thing,they will choose to do what benefits them. They know it's wrong before they even do it, they don't care. No moral compass can fix that. They are thoughtless, selfish, self-centered, and self-serving, they have no conscience. You can't give a conscience to the morally bancrupt. And no moral compass will help them choose to do the right thing. They don't care who they hurt, who they effect who they damage or what havoc they wreak.They are usually the first ones to point a finger and blame someone else or something else, they will never hold themselves accountable. If they held themselves accountable they wouldn't have done the wrong thing to begin with. All we can do is hold them accountable, and try to prevent them from being in a position to hurt alot of people, like voting them into office.

[JAGG]

The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.
Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.

[Dude]

Originally Posted by JAGG

The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.
Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.

Let's say a tornado hit your neighborhood and yours was the only house
left standing.
Let's also say that you were surrounded by poor people who live in trailers.

Your town was hit hard and red cross cant get through the wreckage
for two weeks or so.
Do you hang a sign on your door that says I'm prepared sorry you are not?
Do you invite them in and school them on what you think they should have done,to be more like you?
Do you share your three weeks worth of food with these people or say sorry
that's for me? Hell ,you don't even know them so it ain't your problem they can find someone else to mooch from?
Seriously ,there are many things in life
that cant be prepared for, with money or planning alone.
Maybe you will find that out one day and your tune will change.

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by Dude

Let's say a tornado hit your neighborhood and yours was the only house
left standing.
Let's also say that you were surrounded by poor people who live in trailers.

Your town was hit hard and red cross cant get through the wreckage
for two weeks or so.
Do you hang a sign on your door that says I'm prepared sorry you are not?
Do you invite them in and school them on what you think they should have done,to be more like you?
Do you share your three weeks worth of food with these people or say sorry
that's for me? Hell ,you don't even know them so it ain't your problem they can find someone else to mooch from?
Seriously ,there are many things in life
that cant be prepared for, with money or planning alone.
Maybe you will find that out one day and your tune will change.

Go back and read my post. I wasn't talking about what I would do on a personal level , I am refering to what tax payers should fund as far as gov, programs what's an individual responsibilty what's gov. responsibility.
When you are done rereading my post, tell me where in my post I said we shouldn't help people of catastrophic events, also show me where it says I wouldn't help a neighbor in need. "Maybe I will find out one day and my tune will change"? Is that YOUR attempt to invite me in, and school me, on what you think I should have done to be more like you?
Yes somethings in life one can't be prepared with money or planning alone, somethings become more expensive than you could have ever planned for. But some can!!! I am saying when you can , you should. If you opt not to it's your choice, but don't look for people to bail you out when you make the wrong choice. It's not fair to people who opted to sacrifice new shoes, a new car, a plasma tv, pack their lunch not eat out everyday, to put money aside to pay for extra insurance. It's wrong to shrug your personal responsibility and expect others to pick up your slack, when your shrugging causes you dismay.

[Dude]

Originally Posted by JAGG

Go back and read my post. I wasn't talking about what I would do on a personal level , I am refering to what tax payers should fund as far as gov, programs what's an individual responsibilty what's gov. responsibility.
When you are done rereading my post, tell me where in my post I said we shouldn't help people of catastrophic events, also show me where it says I wouldn't help a neighbor in need. "Maybe I will find out one day and my tune will change"? Is that YOUR attempt to invite me in, and school me, on what you think I should have done to be more like you?
Yes somethings in life one can't be prepared with money or planning alone, somethings become more expensive than you could have ever planned for. But some can!!! I am saying when you can , you should. If you opt not to it's your choice, but don't look for people to bail you out when you make the wrong choice. It's not fair to people who opted to sacrifice new shoes, a new car, a plasma tv, pack their lunch not eat out everyday, to put money aside to pay for extra insurance. It's wrong to shrug your personal responsibility and expect others to pick up your slack, when your shrugging causes you dismay.

I know exactly what your post said. I thought maybe if I took it to a more personal level you would think about it all, with a more open mind.

If I had people calling me ignorant and lacking empathy I would try to be a bit more teachable.
So, no you and I are nothing alike. I'm cool with that.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by JAGG

The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.
Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.

Jagg, I know this won't change your view I do feel that I need/want to speak up a dissenting opinion to what you say (as a former fiscal conservative type).

While it certainly is up to each person to ensure they have a safety net, the challenge is what if their safety net is completely gone because the job they had went *poof*, they've used all their savings and nothing is left? What if they went to school to get a decent job, can't find one now that the market is tanked and have an obscene amount of student loans where they are expected to pay $500 a month from the start? Where does this person turn? To me this isn't about bad choices (not any more). It's about events beyond our own control. I've lost jobs and been out of work for a few months but I cannot imagine being out of work for 2+ years. I don't understand how that's an individuals fault.

I would also like to add that we don't have the close-knit communities like we used to. There has been a cultural shift to remote communities and given the discussion currently on this site about "Internet Duplicity" it's hard to be able to ask or give support when faced with challenges like that. So where does the individual turn to at this point? Middle class has been eroded for years (this has been an ongoing discussion in Canada for years -- I think I remember first seeing this in the mid-90s in the Toronto Star or on the CBC).

On the flip side, banks and large industry (most notably the American car industry) claimed that they needed the money to help individuals stay afloat. They got the money and... nothing. Small business, who cannot stay afloat against the likes of Walmart et al., are going under and cannot get loans in a poor market. People looking for work have a market that is impossible to get into. And often, if they manage to get jobs it's at minimum wage (if they are lucky). Individuals, who were willing to work out new payment plans, were ignored by banks. I know of one woman who worked 2 full time jobs for her restructured mortgage program. The bank kept telling her different amounts for her restructured program and every time she paid she was out by x amount (even after asking 3 times for verification as to the amount and when it was due!). They foreclosed on her recently. How is this her fault? Who does she turn to?

I know that this isn't always because of someone not willing to do the work or not having a safety net. I know this because K spent nearly 2 years trying to find work after obtaining a well-regarded Masters degree in a field that is in need of people: social work. She sent out thousands of resumes over the course of that time and got two call backs. Most of the time people didn't even say "We got your resume and will keep it on file" or some other form of acknowledgement. We're very lucky right now: I make a very decent salary and she, during that 2 years, worked for her dad. She managed to get a temporary job with the VA but that has a lot of uncertainty as it could end at any time.

Now, if I lost my job would we survive? Probably not. My savings is enough to pay off everything I owe but losing my job would mean more than that. I'd have to leave the country and probably live with relatives. For me, this whole fight is personal. While I can't be at the rallies I would love to because the reality is... we are the 99%.

I don't think this is a question of living beyond one's means but rather an extended Depression -- and I think it's time we said that it is a Depression. This isn't an extended Recession. This is a fundamental change in the way that the markets work. At one time, these kinds of events caused individuals to rethink and get creative (the old adage of "necessity is the mother of invention") but this feels very different. In a society where mass consumerism has reached it's peak and saturation, and where box stores and the likes of Amazon rule, I wonder if small business and recreation of industries can still exist.

So while some may have mismanaged or misplanned or spent beyond their means, given the size of what is being faced here in the US I don't think that it's true of the majority.