The Pathological Altruist

Dutch Leonard · 10-07-2011, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoNotHer

What connection did you see to this line of thinking and the article's discussion of the new trajectory in academia to study "altruism" and its manifestations in human behavior and the laws of thermodynamics and cause/effect?

Think of thermodynamics in these terms:

You can't win.

You can't break even.

You can't get out of the game.

Someone who wants to save everyone and everything ultimately destroys what they wanted to save in the first place. Same for the crazy cat lady and the spinal tap ordering doctor.

Amber2010 · 10-07-2011, 07:18 AM

As far as you question over the life raft...so basically you're asking us, if we were on the Titanic, what would we do? Hehe, honestly, though, I think it's a tough call if you haven't been in the situation. Kind of like those questions that ask you: "

I will have to agree I think you have to be in the situation to really know what you are going to do. I know I have never done that but feel that in the heat of the moment I would probably just start piling the "first come" ones in and get the boats down as soon as possible and pray for help from the calls that went out for the rest. I think I am somone who just keeps moving and takes the conseqences when they come. Kind of like a burning building and you can't save all the poeple but you save the ones that you can get to and pray you are doing the right thing but keep moving because if you stop to think about it half will be dead.

AtLast · 10-08-2011, 07:30 AM

Contemplating that we are on that ship with these kinds of choices throughout life really. My actions constantly impact others if I am present in life.

SoNotHer · 10-07-2011, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch Leonard

Think of thermodynamics in these terms: You can't win. You can't break even. You can't get out of the game.

Someone who wants to save everyone and everything ultimately destroys what they wanted to save in the first place. Same for the crazy cat lady and the spinal tap ordering doctor.

I am familiar with the laws of thermodynamics and the concept of entropy. I am trying to understand the specific connection being made and conclusions being drawn here between altruism, thermodynamics and the lifeboat question.

tapu · 10-07-2011, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoNotHer

I am familiar with the laws of thermodynamics and the concept of entropy. I am trying to understand the specific connection being made and conclusions being drawn here between altruism, thermodynamics and the lifeboat question.

Let me try: You can't win for losin'. The good you may do is always canceled out by the bad that is collateral.

I'm working with the terms as defined in the article; point of fact, I agree with you that altruism is used as jargon here, apparently, and not in its customary sense.

SoNotHer · 10-07-2011, 07:41 AM

[QUOTE=tapu;433197]Let me try: You can't win for losin'. The good you may do is always canceled out by the bad that is collateral."

Quite a leap it makes then. I saw a more gently and beautifully laid (yes, please do 'leap" on that entendre) argument in Tom Stoppard's play, Arcadia. Highly recommended.

And yes, I think jargon is a poor substitute for "The Real Thing," to play off of another Stoppard title.

tapu · 10-07-2011, 07:51 AM

[quote=SoNotHer;433206]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tapu

Let me try: You can't win for losin'. The good you may do is always canceled out by the bad that is collateral."

Quite a leap it makes then. I saw a more gently and beautifully laid (yes, please do 'leap" on that entendre) argument in Tom Stoppard's play, Arcadia. Highly recommended.

And yes, I think jargon is a poor substitute for "The Real Thing," to play off of another Stoppard title.

Did she just come on to me...?

SoNotHer · 10-07-2011, 07:54 AM

[quote=tapu;433214]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoNotHer

Did she just come on to me...?

No. But I did inject humor and word play into the discussion.

tapu · 10-07-2011, 07:59 AM

[quote=SoNotHer;433217]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tapu

No. But I did inject humor and word play into the discussion.

Got it.

Joking aside:

Can you explain how it is "quite a leap" to say that altruism (here = its products, i'm thinking) can lead (inadvertently, of course) to bad that cancels out that good?

Sorry, I know Stoppard only by name so that may be the source of misunderstanding that leads to my question above.

Elijah · 10-07-2011, 03:53 PM

Exactly Dutch, you can't get out of the game, so now what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch Leonard

Think of thermodynamics in these terms:

You can't win.

You can't break even.

You can't get out of the game.

Someone who wants to save everyone and everything ultimately destroys what they wanted to save in the first place. Same for the crazy cat lady and the spinal tap ordering doctor.

tapu · 10-07-2011, 05:09 PM

So... you lose.

dreadgeek · 10-07-2011, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tapu

So... you lose.

Ultimately, yes you do but I like to use the analogy of eating. When we eat, we temporarily reduce the amount of entropy in our bodies by taking in the materials of other living things. The thermodynamic books stay balanced because there are waste products that result from converting the energy of one living thing into another living thing. But the immediately local effect is that the total entropy of your body, for that moment, is reduced. Work is done. Matter is converted into energy.

Now, should you stop eating for a sufficient amount of time, entropy will catch up and your body will very quickly start toward a state of higher entropy as your metabolism crashes and then other living things start breaking you down, increasing the disorder in your body until your body no longer exists. Now, over time it doesn't matter how much or how well we eat, our body will break down so, again, entropy always wins in the long run but if you live the average lifespan for your time and place, that's still a *lot* of time at least holding one's own against entropy and I wouldn't call that a loss necessarily.

Cheers
Aj

tapu · 10-07-2011, 05:41 PM

Heya, AJ, I bet we hold the title for the shortest and the longest average posts forum-wide. We're Extreme!!

Elijah · 10-07-2011, 05:41 PM

I don't mind losing, but I think we are expected to put fourth some effort before we do, otherwise it's called surrender.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tapu

So... you lose.

SoNotHer · 10-07-2011, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElijahRene

Exactly Dutch, you can't get out of the game, so now what?

Stoppard answers just this in Arcadia. You live and you love and you fight entropy (my new cause - can you see the vistas ahead for this? The tee shirts, the placards and the marked whoopee cushions).

Again, I highly recommend at the very least a reading of the play. Watch and marvel :-)

tapu · 10-07-2011, 05:32 PM

That "Stoppard" again!! Is he your brother-in-law or something? Just kidding. <tapu ducks>

I'm wondering if anyone else needs a little background on how he comes into the picture here. I realize I could go read about who he is and the works you've recommended but in the short-run, could you fill me in on the connections you want to make just in the context of this conversation?

Thanks. I'm sorry if I'm being thick and could have picked up more from the preceding posts.

Dutch Leonard · 10-07-2011, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElijahRene

Exactly Dutch, you can't get out of the game, so now what?

"Try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."

10-07-2011, 05:09 PM	#11
tapu Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Understated butch. Preferred Pronoun?: I Relationship Status: Party of One Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Maine Posts: 1,654 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,324 Thanked 3,114 Times in 1,103 Posts Rep Power: 21474852	So... you lose. __________________ Really? That's not funny to you?

10-07-2011, 05:41 PM	#13
tapu Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Understated butch. Preferred Pronoun?: I Relationship Status: Party of One Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Maine Posts: 1,654 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,324 Thanked 3,114 Times in 1,103 Posts Rep Power: 21474852	Heya, AJ, I bet we hold the title for the shortest and the longest average posts forum-wide. We're Extreme!! __________________ Really? That's not funny to you?

10-07-2011, 05:32 PM	#16
tapu Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Understated butch. Preferred Pronoun?: I Relationship Status: Party of One Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Maine Posts: 1,654 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,324 Thanked 3,114 Times in 1,103 Posts Rep Power: 21474852	That "Stoppard" again!! Is he your brother-in-law or something? Just kidding. <tapu ducks> I'm wondering if anyone else needs a little background on how he comes into the picture here. I realize I could go read about who he is and the works you've recommended but in the short-run, could you fill me in on the connections you want to make just in the context of this conversation? Thanks. I'm sorry if I'm being thick and could have picked up more from the preceding posts. __________________ Really? That's not funny to you?

10-07-2011, 07:18 AM	#2
Amber2010 Member How Do You Identify?: Happy, Crazy, Bubbly, Funny, Strong, Outgoing, Friendly Preferred Pronoun?: Femme Relationship Status: Complicated Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Florida Posts: 200 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 920 Thanked 594 Times in 154 Posts Rep Power: 3787185	As far as you question over the life raft...so basically you're asking us, if we were on the Titanic, what would we do? Hehe, honestly, though, I think it's a tough call if you haven't been in the situation. Kind of like those questions that ask you: " I will have to agree I think you have to be in the situation to really know what you are going to do. I know I have never done that but feel that in the heat of the moment I would probably just start piling the "first come" ones in and get the boats down as soon as possible and pray for help from the calls that went out for the rest. I think I am somone who just keeps moving and takes the conseqences when they come. Kind of like a burning building and you can't save all the poeple but you save the ones that you can get to and pray you are doing the right thing but keep moving because if you stop to think about it half will be dead.

10-08-2011, 07:30 AM	#3
AtLast Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Woman Preferred Pronoun?: HER - SHE Relationship Status: Relating Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: CA & AZ I'm a Snowbird Posts: 5,408 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 11,826 Thanked 10,827 Times in 3,199 Posts Rep Power: 21474857	Contemplating that we are on that ship with these kinds of choices throughout life really. My actions constantly impact others if I am present in life.

10-07-2011, 07:41 AM	#6
SoNotHer Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Professional Sandbagger and Jenga Zumba Instructor Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: In the master control room of my world domination dreams Posts: 2,811 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 6,587 Thanked 4,736 Times in 1,409 Posts Rep Power: 21474851	[QUOTE=tapu;433197]Let me try: You can't win for losin'. The good you may do is always canceled out by the bad that is collateral." Quite a leap it makes then. I saw a more gently and beautifully laid (yes, please do 'leap" on that entendre) argument in Tom Stoppard's play, Arcadia. Highly recommended. And yes, I think jargon is a poor substitute for "The Real Thing," to play off of another Stoppard title.