OCCUPY WALL STREET

[JAGG]

Its easy to have a car and no insurance. I buy a car off my neighbor. I have 30 days in the state of Oklahoma to tag it. I don't need proof of insurance until I tag it. I could go 29 days without.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by JAGG

How did I guess somehow Id be misuderstood. Taken out of context etc... I have plenty of epathy. And I also would give the shirt off my back to a total stranger and have, and would do it everyday gladly. I never expect anyone to do anything I wouldn't do myself. I have sevral very close family members who are disabled . I have plenty of epathy. I know exactly how it feels to lose everythng and have to start again. I have done twice in my life. I feel if you are in a situation because of your own laziness or poor choices or stupidity and then want to be bailed out I am totally 100 percent against that and always will be. If something happens to you which is not your fault, totally out of your control hell ya we should have programs in place to help you.

I am sorry if you feel misunderstood - I read your words a few times and this is how I understood them. It came off as a great lacking of empathy.

I do have a question though... How do you really know if someone is being lazy or as you say just stupidity? And how do you know if it is in fact their fault? Honestly - We can assume many things and by making such assumptions, people are hurt.

What constitutes poor choices? And who are we to judge, they are poor choices?

And why is it based on how you feel? Could your feelings be wrong, based on bias or wrong information?

I believe this is how we get in trouble in this society - we make life changing calls for people, based on our own emotions and logic - we can certainly be skewed.

Julie

[Dominique]

Originally Posted by JAGG

Its easy to have a car and no insurance. I buy a car off my neighbor. I have 30 days in the state of Oklahoma to tag it. I don't need proof of insurance until I tag it. I could go 29 days without.

What is this in reference to Jagg?

[MsMerrick]

These are not my photos, but they resemble and look, like many of the people I saw when I was down there.
This give s you a good feel for what and who is there:
portraits of people occupying Wall Street

This is also good...
14 Reasons People are Occupying Wall Street

I have to go to work now. I am lucky that I have a job. No health Insurance, and no raise for over 10 years, but its a job....
I know so many people, falling through cracks..They are no longer cracks, they are fissures.. These aren't people that didn't work, or that did drugs, or misbehaved in general.. Just ordinary working people, that are now homeless.. and trying really hard to find work .. It just doesn't exist ..
I don't have time to go point by point ,but 1 ) Bankruptcies due to health problems, is NOT limited to those without Insurance, quite the contrary. 2 ) the idea that anyone can afford some kind of Insurance is ludicrous, and no way fits the reality., ..I really have to go, maybe later..

[atomiczombie]

This is a great article about income inequality in the US:

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesam...er/wealth.html

It's really worth reading, and illustrates how wealth is being squeezed out of the middle class and into the hands of the top 1%.

[theoddz]

Originally Posted by JAGG

How did I guess somehow Id be misuderstood. Taken out of context etc... I have plenty of epathy. And I also would give the shirt off my back to a total stranger and have, and would do it everyday gladly. I never expect anyone to do anything I wouldn't do myself. I have sevral very close family members who are disabled . I have plenty of epathy. I know exactly how it feels to lose everythng and have to start again. I have done twice in my life. I feel if you are in a situation because of your own laziness or poor choices or stupidity and then want to be bailed out I am totally 100 percent against that and always will be. If something happens to you which is not your fault, totally out of your control hell ya we should have programs in place to help you.

Brother, I see your point entirely, but I also see how reality works for many folks, too. I'm not going to pick you apart for your view.

I think what it all boils down to is this. Most folks make choices based on the best they can do, at the time they have to do it in, with what they have to work with. Sometimes, a person can't always make the "best" choice that another person would agree with. Most of the time, it's entirely dependent on what you have to work with that your choices hinge on. There have been times in my life when I've had to make some rather unsavory choices, and perhaps someone else might have viewed what I chose to be a "wrong" choice, but I had nothing else to work with and few options to choose from. I ended up making a few choices that I didn't even agree with, and would have rather *not* done, ordinarily, but I did what I felt I had to do, with what I had to work with.

I think there are a lot of folks out there who are in some pretty desperate situations, and none of their options are what those of us, viewing it from the outside, would choose, but it is what it is for these folks. Who judges another's choices from the outside?? How do we fairly do that?? How do we know what another's priorities are in their situations?? We don't. We've *all* had tough times, at one time or another. It's the human experience.

Sometimes I shake my head when I see someone do something that I, personally, might think as being a "bad choice", but I seldom am in a position to know exactly what that person's situation is, and what their options truly are. For instance, as someone who has never had children of my own (because I didn't *choose* to have them), I could look at someone with 2-5 kids, who is living on $20K/yr (or less), and think to myself "Dayyyum, keep yer legz SHUT!!!", but you know, that person may have, as a priority in their lives, a desire for a (large??) family. Now, some/most of us might see that and think the same thing I think, but the reality for that person with the kids is that family, and having kids is *the* most important thing in their lives. They may or may not have been raised by their parents to have this as their priority, or they may have been raised in a large family with the same mentality. Their take on it is, "We'll have the family we want and we'll somehow make it, the same as my parents did when I was born. We'll get by somehow. We'll make it work." Someone like me, however, sees that as a piss poor choice in life. I don't share those priorities, so I have very little empathy for someone who just keeps "poppin' 'em out" with no idea about how they're going to provide for these kids. Still, do I get to judge?? Do I have a right to condemn?? I don't really care for folks like that to be driving my taxes up with an increased demand on public assistance. On the other hand, I collect disability from the federal government, based on the fact that I developed a severe health problem during my time in military service. Taxpayers pay me a rather good check every month, yet I'm able to still work (and I have a full time job) as I am able to. You know, that fact alone pisses a LOT of folks off. Thing is, they don't see or feel the pain I do as I move through my day with chronic severe pain. I "suck it up" most of the time and I don't complain about it. There's no need to. It is what it is, but I've made a *choice* to keep going and cope with this pain in order to fulfill my own priority of staying "useful" for as long as I can, as much as I can. These other folks who might want to stand in judgment of my choice don't know my personal circumstance, or might not understand my priority of needing to maintain "usefulness" as long as I can. For me, it's not money. My priority is, at the end of the day, what I think of myself. My self esteem is very much linked to my sense of "usefulness". So, who gets to judge me?? Who knows exactly how much I hurt, and what I go through to just be able to live MY priority....my need to be useful?? That's important to me, just as having that big family and "figuring it out as we go/living hand to mouth/living with public assistance". One person's priority might be someone else's view of a "poor choice". Who gets to judge??

I've had this discussion many times, over the years, with folks who have all sorts of different viewpoints. My conclusion is this......none of us have a right to judge others' choices. We're all doing the best we can, with what we have, with what we have to do it with, at the time we have to do it.

My .02

~Theo~

[Sachita]

People have been socially hypnotized and manipulated by the great white lie. Their unpreparedness and ignorance is due to the fact that they believed in this "One Nation under God" bullshit. They ignored the facts and solicited the propaganda because they were lied to. They believed that social security would take care of them. It's not their fault.

As mentioned in other post most live pay check to pay check. It's a constant struggle just to stay afloat so it's no wonder they long to escape even if it's a form of sabotage. We are all victims of this trap.

My son wants to go to DC and I'm going to get him a ticket. He wants to stand up for his daughter's future. I am proud of him. I am worried but I am proud. I wondered why the fuck it took so long for people to actually do something. You are witness to a revolution we can not allow it to die. There are tons of people out there that STILL don't know what's going on or why. If you can't be there or financially support them then spend some time posting on facebook or anywhere you can giving people information and getting them proactive to do the same. If you live close to a city protesting find out how you can send blankets, jackets, sweat shirts, water, anything. Some people were unprepared- lol- Yep, sometimes passion rules!

[Dude]

JAGG,

Poor choices?
Maybe I should have refused a severance package from my teamster
job and maybe one day they would have eventually called me back.
Which would have been great had they called me in for 4 hours of
work because I would then be paid for 40 hours .The weeks they don't call you in,
you get nothing.

Starting over today is not like it was ,starting over 5 or 10 years ago,
I can assure you of that .

At 45 ,I may have been hired for jobs that now wont hire a 50 year old.
I will be fine .I know this somehow but there are people out there who
are 60 and people with less skills who wont be hired for anything but
part time minimum wage jobs (if they find work at all)
They drive a hooptie and decide feeding
their kids takes priority over fucking car insurance. I agree with them,it is.

It's like having no compassion for someone with a back injury until you
have one yourself ,its impossible to really relate maybe until you live it.

It's very easy to judge poor people until you become one.
I used to do the exact same thing maybe not to the level of
your recent posts but close.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by theoddz

I've had this discussion many times, over the years, with folks who have all sorts of different viewpoints. My conclusion is this......none of us have a right to judge others' choices. We're all doing the best we can, with what we have, with what we have to do it with, at the time we have to do it.

My .02

~Theo~

I totally hear you Theo; I really do. But isn't there a difference between judging someone's choices and paying for them?

Case in point....the family who owned this house before us.

They bought it 9 years ago, refinanced it five times, took the money and bought boats, 4 wheelers, fishing gear, an RV, cars, etc.

By the time they left, after not making a single mortgage payment in over a year, they owed 3 times what the house could sell for. The bank took the hit...sold it...and now I'm paying that smaller mortgage.

Honestly...their choices. I wouldn't make them. I prefer to keep my living expenses reasonable enough that I could pay them on a bartenders salary because, as you say....we can all be there, or have been there. I've been there. I dug myself into financial holes that took me years to dig out of and cost me dearly. I (mostly) learned my lesson.

So....they can refinance their house, bet on "pie in the sky" real estate speculation, and buy a mountain of toys that I couldn't afford even with the job I have now. When they left, they took the toys. They also stole the solar pool heaters off the roof, but that's another issue. They walked out on about $200,000 in debt....and we are all paying it off for them....while they still have their toys.

That just bothers me, and I don't think it's right.

To Linus' (and others) point...I have no idea how many people in foreclosure were like the previous owners here, and how many got caught in a bad situation they couldn't help....losing a job, health problems, etc. I don't think we should ignore the difference though. No, it's not easy to figure out who deserves help and who doesn't....but dang....I work hard and I can't afford a boat...yet the previous owners of this house still have one, while we all pay the higher fees and interest that the bank will be charging for years to make back that $200,000.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I often wonder why women get that whole keep your legs shut cast on them when they have more than the "right" amount of kids, why doesn't the other person HELPING make these children get told wrap that dick in a knot?? Why do we as women get shit upon over and over for giving birth to a child that was not a fucking immaculate conception.

FFS check your sexism and mysoginy at the fucking front door..

[Linus]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I totally hear you Theo; I really do. But isn't there a difference between judging someone's choices and paying for them?

Case in point....the family who owned this house before us.

They bought it 9 years ago, refinanced it five times, took the money and bought boats, 4 wheelers, fishing gear, an RV, cars, etc.

By the time they left, after not making a single mortgage payment in over a year, they owed 3 times what the house could sell for. The bank took the hit...sold it...and now I'm paying that smaller mortgage.

Honestly...their choices. I wouldn't make them. I prefer to keep my living expenses reasonable enough that I could pay them on a bartenders salary because, as you say....we can all be there, or have been there. I've been there. I dug myself into financial holes that took me years to dig out of and cost me dearly. I (mostly) learned my lesson.

So....they can refinance their house, bet on "pie in the sky" real estate speculation, and buy a mountain of toys that I couldn't afford even with the job I have now. When they left, they took the toys. They also stole the solar pool heaters off the roof, but that's another issue. They walked out on about $200,000 in debt....and we are all paying it off for them....while they still have their toys.

That just bothers me, and I don't think it's right.

To Linus' (and others) point...I have no idea how many people in foreclosure were like the previous owners here, and how many got caught in a bad situation they couldn't help....losing a job, health problems, etc. I don't think we should ignore the difference though. No, it's not easy to figure out who deserves help and who doesn't....but dang....I work hard and I can't afford a boat...yet the previous owners of this house still have one, while we all pay the higher fees and interest that the bank will be charging for years to make back that $200,000.

Like you, I would pay off the house and not refinance it. If I wanted a boat (not that I would) I would save and pay for that separately. The thing is I wonder how many cases are like yours versus those who wanted a house, got one that was within their price range (and didn't go for extravagant "extras" in life) and then got smacked by the recession. But right now, we're not even helping those who fit the latter situation. That is what the biggest challenges is right now. Because of the former (the person who spent well beyond their means during times of good and didn't prepare for the worst) everyone is being thrown under the bus.

As for the differences (unless this has changed), I know in Canada if you quit your job and there is no justifiable reason for it (e.g., health, wanting to do a significant career change, etc.) you don't get employment insurance. That said, I do believe that basic health care (e.g., to cover things like accidents, etc.) should be available. A healthy workforce and a reduction in stress makes for a far happier workforce.


As a tangent, my biggest beef right now is the banks charging rates well above those of those cheque cashing places. For all intents and purposes, banks are a form of legalized loan sharks. Interest rates are at less than 1% and mortgages are less than 4% (for 30 years). And yet, credit cards have fees that range from 25%+. I've never missed a payment and always pay more than minimum and yet, it got raised (I argued it back down but seriously!)

[JAGG]

[QUOTE=Linus;433315]A question, then: how many people do you think, who are currently in the midst of foreclosure, have had foreclosure, are out of work, have no savings, in dire need of help and have none, are those who made poor or "stupid" choices?[/QUOTE
You can pick a million and one situations and say that's an exception, what about that person. I have a huge problem with people run credit cards up and want there debts forgiven. Who read sign and accept the terms of a mortgage they know they can't afford. Just because you are approved for 175,000 dollars doesn't mean you can afford it. Then when they fall behind go into foreclosure they want to be bailed out. That is not fair to the people who bought the 80,00 dollar house in an older not as nice neighborhood without a pool granite countertops, because they knew they couldn't afford it at that time. I'm not talking someone who has a brain tumor removed and is brain damaged from it. Not talking about diabled. Or something toatally out of your control.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by JAGG

You can pick a million and one situations and say that's an exception, what about that person. I have a huge problem with people run credit cards up and want there debts forgiven. Who read sign and accept the terms of a mortgage they know they can't afford. Just because you are approved for 175,000 dollars doesn't mean you can afford it. Then when they fall behind go into foreclosure they want to be bailed out. That is not fair to the people who bought the 80,00 dollar house in an older not as nice neighborhood without a pool granite countertops, because they knew they couldn't afford it at that time. I'm not talking someone who has a brain tumor removed and is brain damaged from it. Not talking about diabled. Or something toatally out of your control.

Totally get that. But the way that I read your post (and perhaps it's my interpretation) is that EVERYONE who is at OWS or in need fits into the "stupid" choices category. As I posted, a few min ago, it often feels like ALL individuals (both those with not-so-great choices and those with circumstantial situations) are being thrown under the bus. Certainly it's being done by various parts of the media and others. We often focus, IMO, too much on the "poor choices" and not the ones that truly need help.

But that said, to me, there is a point where even the "poor choices" becomes something out of their control. Do we always say "You sucked at choices and we will never help you"? Is there a point where we say "You made a poor choice but still need help. Let's see what we can do?" (this questions are for everyone)

[JAGG]

[QUOTE=Linus;433315]A question, then: how many people do you think, who are currently in the midst of foreclosure, have had foreclosure, are out of work, have no savings, in dire need of help and have none, are those who made poor or "stupid" choices?[/QUOTE
You can pick a million and one situations and say that's an exception, what about that person. I have a huge problem with people run credit cards up and want there debts forgiven. Who read sign and accept the terms of a mortgage they know they can't afford. Just because you are approved for 175,000 dollars doesn't mean you can afford it. Then when they fall behind go into foreclosure they want to be bailed out. That is not fair to the people who bought the 80,00 dollar house in an older not as nice neighborhood without a pool granite countertops, because they knew they couldn't afford it at that time. I'm not talking someone who has a brain tumor removed and is brain damaged from it. Not talking about diabled. Or something toatally out of your control.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Linus

Like you, I would pay off the house and not refinance it. If I wanted a boat (not that I would) I would save and pay for that separately. The thing is I wonder how many cases are like yours versus those who wanted a house, got one that was within their price range (and didn't go for extravagant "extras" in life) and then got smacked by the recession. But right now, we're not even helping those who fit the latter situation. That is what the biggest challenges is right now. Because of the former (the person who spent well beyond their means during times of good and didn't prepare for the worst) everyone is being thrown under the bus.

As for the differences (unless this has changed), I know in Canada if you quit your job and there is no justifiable reason for it (e.g., health, wanting to do a significant career change, etc.) you don't get employment insurance. That said, I do believe that basic health care (e.g., to cover things like accidents, etc.) should be available. A healthy workforce and a reduction in stress makes for a far happier workforce.


As a tangent, my biggest beef right now is the banks charging rates well above those of those cheque cashing places. For all intents and purposes, banks are a form of legalized loan sharks. Interest rates are at less than 1% and mortgages are less than 4% (for 30 years). And yet, credit cards have fees that range from 25%+. I've never missed a payment and always pay more than minimum and yet, it got raised (I argued it back down but seriously!)

Totally and absolutely agree....and that's one of the most frustrating things (to me) in this whole situation. People who got lied to by predatory lenders, people who lost their job and got caught in a market with no jobs to be had....they're all suffering because so many speculators got greedy and then called foul.

And...yea....me too on the credit card thing. Frustrating as hell.

Banks, I believe, need some serious regulation....and we need to organize a heck of a lot more credit unions that are non-profits, run cooperatively by members, who keep the costs of borrowing down. Banks, as they exist now, ARE loan sharks in my view...and it's disgusting.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I often wonder why women get that whole keep your legs shut cast on them when they have more than the "right" amount of kids, why doesn't the other person HELPING make these children get told wrap that dick in a knot?? Why do we as women get shit upon over and over for giving birth to a child that was not a fucking immaculate conception.

Exactly. As the mother of one, whose father has fought paying child support since day one, and hasn't currently paid a dime in 2-1/2 years.....amen.

The packet of information is being put together now for child support enforcement...and no doubt he'll squeal when he has his tax returns taken, wages garnisheed, drivers license and passport pulled if he doesn't comply, etc. No doubt, I'll be the greedy bitch and he'll tell everyone how unfairly he's being treated. He'll try to play the victim in all of this.

What he'll ignore is the total responsibility I've taken for the last 14 years of food, allowances, clothes, housing, medical insurance, dental bills, college fund, glasses every year, school incidentals, vacations, etc.

No doubt he'll consider it horribly unfair. Poor baby.

Having children is a huge responsibility...on the part of both parents.

[weatherboi]

Most people in this country who are under water or are in foreclosure are so because of criminally over inflated market values, predatory mortgages and unethical credit card companies. All mostly directed by banks, mortgage companies, and their regulators. People were given the illusion that they were living within their means by people throwing misinformation in their faces about the state of our lands market values. I bought my house at peak market value in foreclosure. It is now worth less than that foreclosure price. That is under water and a bad investment on the banks part...not mine. I love my house but if I am overpaying for it what is the point??? The market may never bounce back to what it was. Many other fiscally responsible people have chosen to walk away because of this and I think about it too.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Most people in this country who are under water or are in foreclosure are so because of criminally over inflated market values, predatory mortgages and unethical credit card companies. All mostly directed by banks, mortgage companies, and their regulators. People were given the illusion that they were living within their means by people throwing misinformation in their faces about the state of our lands market values. I bought my house at peak market value in foreclosure. It is now worth less than that foreclosure price. That is under water and a bad investment on the banks part...not mine. I love my house but if I am overpaying for it what is the point??? The market may never bounce back to what it was. Many other fiscally responsible people have chosen to walk away because of this and I think about it too.

This is absolutely true for a lot of people. I also wonder though about where we draw the line on believing the banks and credit card companies.

Every time I've gone to the bank for pre-approval on a mortgage, they've approved me for about double the amount that I personally felt comfortable paying and knew I could afford.

Is that their responsibility or mine?

Maybe what we need is to have more heavily regulated truth in lending, and more education about personal finances and money management in the schools. Just thinking aloud here....not really having an answer.

I understand the feeling of "screw this, I'm never going to get even on this mortgage" and the urge to walk away on the part of people who bought at the peak of the market. But what about those (like this house's previous owners) who bought low, refinanced like mad to play, and then walked away?

For me, those are two very different scenarios.

ETA: Grant, I totally agree with one thing you mentioned and then forgot to include it
In my opinion, the biggest speculators in this real estate disaster were the banks. They made loans that were absolutely ridiculously inflated, and fed the real estate bubble all along. They, of all people, should have known better....and been saner...in both the amounts they loaned on property, and on the types of loans they made.

[atomiczombie]

Jagg,

I just want to say that when my ex-wife and I got together I had 2 credit cards and a total of $300 debt between them. By the time we split up, between my 2 cards we were about $12,000 in debt. There are many reasons, part of which is that she wanted to spend spend spend and we argued about it, and I unfortunately gave in way too much because I hadn't learned to stand up for myself back then. She was also someone who would never back down from an argument, and had I not backed down our argument would just go on and on. I gave in because she wore me down. My bad.

Then she got laid off from her job in the mortgage dept at B of A in Concord, CA. That was in 2003. I was the only one working, and I made about $12-13 per hour. She went on unemployment, and our monthly income plummeted. I sold my Harley to pay bills. We had an apartment, a kid, and a car payment. We also were paying COBRA for my wife's healthcare since losing her job, which was 100s of dollars more per month. We ended up getting behind on our bills and paying for basic things like groceries with my credit cards. Her credit was so bad that she didn't have any credit cards. She refused to allow me to ask my parents for financial help. Well, I say allow because that was about fight that there was no way for me to win. She was verbally and emotionally abusive to me, and very controlling.

When I finally left her after years of taking this abuse, she decided she wasn't going to pay her half of my credit card debt. She said that would count for my child support. Because we had missed payments, my rate was 30%. Before I had been with my ex-wife, I had excellent credit and was responsible with my money. I hadn't anticipated that things would end up this way. I had mistakenly thought that she would get another job soon and we would climb out of this financial hole. Instead, she decided not to look for another job and just take some classes to gain some more skills. She stayed on unemployment for a year. It wasn't until the end of that year that I left her, because she couldn't get by w/o my income. We had a child. I wasn't comfortable leaving them w/o an income that would sustain their basic needs.

When I left my ex-wife, I was making $13/hr and couldn't afford to pay much more than the minimum payments, but I always paid a little more just to try to get it paid down. I had a small dive of an apartment and no car payments. I got by ok, but at the rate I was going, it would have taken me decades to pay it off. I was faithful with my payments. I was never late or missed any of them. I called my credit card companies asking them to lower my rates. B of A told me I had to make all my payments on time for 6 months and then they would decrease it. 6 months came and went and I was still being charged 29.99%. Same with my Citibank card. No matter how many payments I made on time, neither bank would lower my rates. My parents ended up paying off my cards after a few years, because they saw how ridiculous my situation was.

That is how a lot of people end up with piles of debt they have no way to pay back. Yes, you could say I am at fault because of the choices I made. However, I wasn't able to anticipate how it would all turn out. I was in a bad marriage to someone I shouldn't have been with. I didn't see all the red flags ahead of time, because I had grown up with years of abuse and wasn't able to see those red flags. I was naive about a lot of things. I learned a lot of difficult lessons. I guess that is part of growing up. I now have zero credit card debt. I never use my cards under any circumstances. If I want something I save for it and if I can't save for it, then I don't need it. I am on disability so I am very poor.

People get into a lot of debt for a variety of reasons. I think it's unfair to assume that you know all the ins and outs of a situation just on the face of it. People are human and make mistakes. That doesn't mean that the system isn't stacked against them and inherently unfair. It is.

[theoddz]

Oh, wait a sec and let me clarify this.....

I didn't mean that *I* would look at someone and think "Keep yer legz shut". I was, well, using "myself" in the vernacular way, to illustrate how I've heard people talk about that kind of a situation. To further clarify *my* own personal point of view, birth control is, to my knowledge, available for both males and females. I certainly don't believe that women should bear the brunt of pregnancy prevention over the responsibility of men to do the same thing!!! I think it's a matter of personal responsibility for both, in the issue of consensual sexual relations!!

You know, I just try to not take an opinion when I see what I perceive to be gross irresponsibility in a person's choices. I don't walk in their shoes, so I don't think I get to judge, because just looking from the outside at a stranger (say, in the grocery store) I don't know their circumstance, or their priorities in life. I am, however, *very* human and I have to catch myself from making judgments. I'll own that!!! I just don't think that's always fair to do that to everyone who makes what I think is a poor choice.

Oh no, birth control is *everyone's* responsibility. Now, things like rape and such are a totally different matter.....entirely different.

~Theo~