OCCUPY WALL STREET

[Toughy]

There has been conversation around the word 'occupy' and some of the goals of the many affinity groups involved in this coalition.

One of the things I learned, in my years as an activist, is coalition building is messy....much like democracy. There are always things individuals and the various affinity groups disagree about. When you seek to organize around a commonality....in this case the unfair distribution of wealth and how to rememdy that problem...you always HAVE TO build coalition with those you may disagree with about other issues.

My years taught me that WAR (a berkeley based anarchy group) will always show up. They are generally the ones who break store windows, set fire to dumpsters, throw rocks and bottles at police, and generally try to provoke police. What makes me sad is the po po take the bait. They don't have to do that. The po po, in all their protective gear, can simply not react. Actually they should be there to direct traffic and provide assistance to those who are involved in protest march/rally/gatherings. The police should be my friend........my nephew is a cop.........I can't imagine him with riot gear, tear gas and rubber bulletts........

Actually they can NOT wear all that gear and show up in their regular uniforms to aid and assist protesters in their right to free assembly and the right to occupy the streets. This is actually what happened in San Francisco in the very early years of the GRID/AIDS/ HIV protests. The po po WALKED with us when we marched. They were there to protect and serve protesters. SF got a new police chief and that all stopped and the violence began. Diane Feinstein (the new mayor) ordered the police to allow the White Night riots, however she neglected to control those police who came into the Castro for revenge.

The Health Department can engage in constructive dialogue on the health and safety issues involved in long term tent encampments. The Health Department (and the police) are there to help and serve the community. They should be doing that. If there are health issues, then the Health Department should act in concert with the encampment to insure the health of those people. Work with them around sanitation and food safety. Figure out how to have clean toliets and handwashing stations. Figure out how the police will deal with any violence that might occur within the encampment.

It is encumbant on EVERYONE, government and citizens, to work together so the experiment of democracy in the US can continue. Government IS the people.

If we are to build solid useful coalitions that will bring about equality for everyone and equitable distribution of wealth that creates a solid middle class....we MUST take the good with the bad. Coalitions are never easy, but organizing around those things we share in common is the only way to change the system.

I gots lots o issues with anarchists, communists, tea party folks and others. However I am willing to work with them where we agree.

I'm rambling now and will stop

[Toughy]

Aj..........you have done a good job of negative dissection of the socialist part of the coalition.

Do you have anything positive to say about the coalition? How about something constructive about how to build coalition in the face of serious differences within a common goal?

[ruffryder]

Oregon police arrest about 30.

http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world...t-1212991.html

[Toughy]

Are there conversations with the police, health department, politicians, sanitation department, every other aspect of city/county government appropriate to tent encampments and the appropriate Occupy contact folks? All the Occupy encampments that I have visited or heard about, on KPFA free radio and other media, have contact people for all these areas. Are both sides reaching out to reach equitable agreements?

I have heard and read of both sides (across the country) reaching out to each other in the last few days. Perhaps Oakland will serve as a catalyst for useful partnerships that re-enforce democracy and our Constitution.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Are there conversations with the police, health department, politicians, sanitation department, every other aspect of city/county government appropriate to tent encampments and the appropriate Occupy contact folks? All the Occupy encampments that I have visited or heard about, on KPFA free radio and other media, have contact people for all these areas. Are both sides reaching out to reach equitable agreements?

I have heard and read of both sides (across the country) reaching out to each other in the last few days. Perhaps Oakland will serve as a catalyst for useful partnerships that re-enforce democracy and our Constitution.

That would be nice. Isn't that the whole point of this? There is going to be shit happening and unfortunately people get hurt. They want us to give up and we won't, no matter what.

And I'm so sick of the excuses about sanitation and yadda yadda- You can set up massive tent cities using tax payer money. Now use our money and get to work.

[Toughy]

I would remind folks that all those 'sit, lie' laws that are about homeless people and where they can be are being used against Occupy individuals and encampments.

Think about it the next time your local government wants to limit where, how and when homeless (and everyone) folks can be. It all sounds great when it comes to us not having to see homeless folks on the city streets, but not so great when applied to Occupy folks.

[Sachita]

I like the idea of the government making the banks/raping mortgaging institutions, take all the foreclosures and creating homes for the homeless but people bitched about property values, the government bitched about taxes and no one is fucking happy. So they can shut the fuck up about where they land or create housing or jobs for them.

It just goes a round and a round, a big wheel of lies, deception and excuses. Don't listen to them. Move forward, raise hell, don't stop talking and whenever possible make life difficult for them.

At some point larger statements will be made and it will cost "something". What are you willing to pay? What do you think the government will do if we all collectively stopped paying taxes? Can they throw us all in jail? If we shut down even a few of the largest corporations by boycotting we'll make a strong statement.

[persiphone]

i disagree with the premise that it's great when applied to homeless folks. we are all one step from homelessness and i've said that even before the housing bubble and burst. homelessness is a grim reality for many more that weren't homeless just a few years ago, hell just a few months ago. and many more will enter into homelessness before this is over. we are a very unfriendly nation when it comes to our homeless. we really need to gravely reconsider the state of our homeless situations. we make, via laws, homelessness a horrible void from which there is little escape. i think people don't realize how expensive it is to be poor, let alone homeless and not just for those that are trapped in it.

i really despise the idea that a homeless person is something "we shouldn't see". we actually should see it as a reminder that they are still people and they still should be entitled basic human rights and needs. it disgusts me the way we treat our homeless.

edited to add.....i dunno why everyone is so shocked and appalled by the protesters being subject to the same laws that the homeless are subject to. i don't consider myself better than anyone else. i find it appalling that people should think they are somehow above a lower class of human and therefore should be treated differently or better.

/mad as hell rant

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Oregon police arrest about 30.

http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world...t-1212991.html

the park in question is in The Pearl District which is a posh neighborhood. of course they don't want protesters there lol! gawd forbid should they have to look at protesters. kind of like the homeless......how distasteful. *sarcasm*

[Toughy]

What do you think the government will do if we all collectively stopped paying taxes? Can they throw us all in jail? If we shut down even a few of the largest corporations by boycotting we'll make a strong statement.

2 entirely different things going on here...

don't pay taxes then government stops.......what does that look like...no police, no fire, no sewer, no toll roads, no maintenance of roads, no SSI or SSDI or State Disability or medicare or medicaid or military pay, no one guarding jails and prisons, the list goes on and on .........not a good idea in my mind.......

Shutting down corporations is not the same thing as shutting down the government.

[Ebon]

Occupy Update

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Toughy

2 entirely different things going on here...

don't pay taxes then government stops.......what does that look like...no police, no fire, no sewer, no toll roads, no maintenance of roads, no SSI or SSDI or State Disability or medicare or medicaid or military pay, no one guarding jails and prisons, the list goes on and on .........not a good idea in my mind.......

Shutting down corporations is not the same thing as shutting down the government.

And shutting down corporations and banks is exactly what is needed! The 1% are most likely sitting back and laughing about most of this. The idea that a few thousand citizens in the US are taking over public parks which is actually taking away the use of them from other 99%ers is probably quite funny to them. And the only way that that 1% will hear the 98% is through our political processes. We have an opportunity right in front of us- the 2012 general election. Isn't it time the TP and GOP support of Wall Street & banks is stopped? I love the OWS movement in spirit, but think that unless it gets focused on real solutions that the general public can rally behind and put into legislative action, it will not be an effective social movement. And these tactics have to be acceptable across the spectrum of the 99%. What can someone in their 20's have in common with a retirement aged person that has been screwed out of a pension, for example? How does OWS merge the needs across a very diverse 99% to effect change?

[Cin]

Originally Posted by AtLast

And shutting down corporations and banks is exactly what is needed! The 1% are most likely sitting back and laughing about most of this. The idea that a few thousand citizens in the US are taking over public parks which is actually taking away the use of them from other 99%ers is probably quite funny to them. And the only way that that 1% will hear the 98% is through our political processes. We have an opportunity right in front of us- the 2012 general election. Isn't it time the TP and GOP support of Wall Street & banks is stopped? I love the OWS movement in spirit, but think that unless it gets focused on real solutions that the general public can rally behind and put into legislative action, it will not be an effective social movement. And these tactics have to be acceptable across the spectrum of the 99%. What can someone in their 20's have in common with a retirement aged person that has been screwed out of a pension, for example? How does OWS merge the needs across a very diverse 99% to effect change?

I’m not sure I agree that OWS needs to get focused on real solutions.

I think it’s important to bring attention to the issues. I think it might be the most important thing of all.

I don’t think things are going to get better any time soon.

I do think they will be getting significantly worse as time goes by.

Real solutions, legislative action…we can’t even occupy the Capital steps when we have a permit that allows us to do so. We can't even not get shot in the face with rubber bullets. We can't have peaceful protests without being tear gassed by the paramilitary police there to protect and serve the 1%.

I think the attention of the nation is being focused on the real problems courtesy of all the occupy movements. That is what is most necessary at this time.

None of this is going to go away because it can’t. And it can’t because of the degree of damage caused by the 1% and by their desire keep causing damage and their need to hoard their money and to continue to make tons more standing on our necks. Things have no other way to go.

There will be ample opportunity for real solutions.

I think the 99% or at least a large percentage of them, need help to recognize the depth of the problems. They need help to find a voice. Help to find the words to begin to articulate what they have understood intuitively. Something is very wrong. And it a part of the real solutions that people have the time and the help to figure out that their intuition is correct. There is something very wrong. And it's not caused by the poor. Or minorities. Or immigrants. Or queers. Or a lack of religious values. And then they need an outlet, a place to voice in their own words what they have discovered. That's OWS.

And I have no doubt whatsoever that plenty about the 99% is extremely funny to the 1%. I'm sure they laugh out loud and snicker amongst themselves at how hysterically funny it is that the 99% has believed giving more and more money and tax breaks to the 1% as well as passing laws to benefit the 1% and their corporations would somehow end well for the poor, and the working and middle class. I'm sure they are choking with laughter over that. But I seriously doubt OWS has been the source of many chuckles for the 1%.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by Toughy

2 entirely different things going on here...

don't pay taxes then government stops.......what does that look like...no police, no fire, no sewer, no toll roads, no maintenance of roads, no SSI or SSDI or State Disability or medicare or medicaid or military pay, no one guarding jails and prisons, the list goes on and on .........not a good idea in my mind.......

Shutting down corporations is not the same thing as shutting down the government.

The first part about taxes is more of fantasy, however as it appears our taxes arent enough to keep all those things afloat anyhow. Wasn't it just a few months ago when all of that was at risk in the event of a government shut down? Let's face it Toughy a lot of that IS going to stop/end/ cease to exist anyhow. So I guess I we keep feeding the money pit and we're still fucked. lol