Click.... when we knew we were feminists

[dykeumentary]

*bumping this important thread*

Also.... I was surprised to find myself conflicted about posting body photos to be objectified. I did post, sort of as an exercise in pushing myself. I guess the feminist in me has gotten comfortable with looking a Femmes when they present themselves to be "viewed" that way. But it was a little uncomfortable for me.
Thoughts on this?

[*Anya*]

I have several thoughts about this issue actually and may appear to be random but are all related-or will be in the end.

I am a feminist. I am a lesbian. I am not only attracted to a woman's mind but am attracted to her sexually. A woman's body is beautiful to me. Looking at pictures of butches, I appreciate not only their handsome beauty but they also turn me on very much.

I also like to occasionally look at lesbian porn. Not the fake lesbian porn made by bio males but porn actually produced and directed by lesbians. I have even, on occasion, looked at gay male porn and found it arousing ( movie "The Kids are All Right" anyone?).

I also think that when we are objectifying ourselves, as in the Butches and Girl Pinup threads, there is an element of humor and joy to it. Feminism can also have humor and joyful play; I do not think they are mutually exclusive!

I remember the feminist protests against porn. I never participated in them because I felt they were grossly misguided when there were so many other, much more important issues of concern.

From Wiki, regarding the porn wars:

"Women Against Pornography (WAP) was a radical feminist activist group based out of New York City and an influential force in the anti-pornography movement of the late 1970s and the 1980s.

WAP was the best known of a number of feminist anti-pornography groups that were active throughout the United States and the anglophone world, mainly from the late 1970s through the early 1990s. After previous failed attempts to start a broad feminist anti-pornography group in New York City, WAP was started in 1978. WAP quickly drew widespread support for its anti-pornography campaign, and in late 1979 held a March on Times Square that included over 5000 supporters. Their anti-pornography activism around Times Square also brought in unexpected financial support from the Mayor's office, theater owners, and other parties with an interest in the gentrification of Times Square.

WAP became known through their anti-pornography informational tours of sex shops and pornographic theaters in Times Square. In the 1980s, WAP began to focus more on lobbying and legislative efforts against pornography, particularly in support of civil-rights-oriented antipornography legislation. They were also active in testifying before the Meese Commission and some of their advocacy of a civil-rights based anti-pornography model found its way into the final recommendations of the commission. It became less active in the 1990s and faded out of existence in the mid-1990s.

The positions of the group were controversial. Civil libertarians opposed WAP and similar groups, holding that the legislative approaches WAP advocated amounted to censorship. Sex-positive feminists held that feminist campaigns against pornography were misdirected and ultimately threatened sexual freedoms and free speech rights in a way that would be ultimately detrimental toward women, gay people, and sexual minorities. WAP became involved in some particularly heated debates and skirmishes with sex-positive feminists, particularly in the events surrounding the 1982 Barnard Conference. These events were battles in what became known as the Feminist Sex Wars of the late 1970s and 1980s."

Bottom line, I believe we can be feminists and make our own porn, shoot our own photos, we can appreciate and love the beauty that is woman, femme or butch (whichever turns us on); in all of her glory-clothed or unclothed and it does not make us any less of a feminist.

[dykeumentary]

Hi Anya, thanks for your thoughts.
I remember hearing about those debates, but mostly from the perspective of my uncles, who all had subscriptions to Playboy. They also expressed their hope that the ladies would resolve their dispute by means of a national hot-oil-wrestling tournament....)

So i came out in that culture (not very fun) and my first gay community was working class softball dykes. Many of them had body issues and wore ill-fitting baggy men's clothes. I almost decided I must not be lesbian, because I wasn't sexually attracted to them at all.
So when I started to find lesbians who were pretty and feminine, I got scared about my feelings. (but became reassured that I wanted to have sex with women!). I wanted to be with a feminine woman, but I didn't know how to "be". When I was growing up in New Jersey in the 1970s, I always thought the hookers my uncles would meet at the bowling alley were the most sexy and beautiful women in the world. (ok, part of me still does ). But my innate sense of fairness knew that I shouldn't treat women the way I saw them treated in my town.
This was further complicated by my being a dyed-in-the-wool stone top. I didn't know anyone who was even talking about sex, and the few that were talking (usually very late at the pot luck) were glowing about how "equal" and "reciprocally touching" it was.
So there I was trying to grow away from my culture of sexism, and some of the people around me we lesbian separatists, many hated their bodies, and not many were in their power as sexual people.' We were all trying to figure out how to be different kinds of women than our mothers were.

I think I'm rambling on and on here. Sorry.
I guess I'm saying that I love women's bodies, and i love to celebrate them in word and deed! It's been a journey to recognize what makes sense and what's oppressive.
I guess the bottom line (and the top!) is fully informed and freely given CONSENT.

[Sachita]

when I was a young teen I became friends with a hardcore feminist lesbian wiccan group.

I've spent most of my life rebelling against patriarchy in some way or another. Some points of my life more then others. I just don't fit into the typical feminist mold. I would consider myself leaning more radical and my true core views would piss some people off but try as I may to free my mind, I just can't deny my feelings.

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Hi Anya, thanks for your thoughts.
I remember hearing about those debates, but mostly from the perspective of my uncles, who all had subscriptions to Playboy. They also expressed their hope that the ladies would resolve their dispute by means of a national hot-oil-wrestling tournament....)

So i came out in that culture (not very fun) and my first gay community was working class softball dykes. Many of them had body issues and wore ill-fitting baggy men's clothes. I almost decided I must not be lesbian, because I wasn't sexually attracted to them at all.
So when I started to find lesbians who were pretty and feminine, I got scared about my feelings. (but became reassured that I wanted to have sex with women!). I wanted to be with a feminine woman, but I didn't know how to "be". When I was growing up in New Jersey in the 1970s, I always thought the hookers my uncles would meet at the bowling alley were the most sexy and beautiful women in the world. (ok, part of me still does ). But my innate sense of fairness knew that I shouldn't treat women the way I saw them treated in my town.
This was further complicated by my being a dyed-in-the-wool stone top. I didn't know anyone who was even talking about sex, and the few that were talking (usually very late at the pot luck) were glowing about how "equal" and "reciprocally touching" it was.
So there I was trying to grow away from my culture of sexism, and some of the people around me we lesbian separatists, many hated their bodies, and not many were in their power as sexual people.' We were all trying to figure out how to be different kinds of women than our mothers were.

I think I'm rambling on and on here. Sorry.
I guess I'm saying that I love women's bodies, and i love to celebrate them in word and deed! It's been a journey to recognize what makes sense and what's oppressive.
I guess the bottom line (and the top!) is fully informed and freely given CONSENT.

Oh yes, handsome stone butch top; there must be fully informed and freely given consent for all things sexual!

I came out in the late 70's too, at which time the lesbians I met everywhere wore flannel shirts, baggy clothing, and they did not at all appreciate the femme that I was. Actually, at a couple of bars and clubs, they kind of laughed at me.

I did not feel like I fit in anywhere until I met my ex-who was stone butch at the time. She absolutely appreciated how feminine I was and my "femme-ness". I had finally found my niche in the butch-femme dynamic.

We were both very active in NOW but during the NOW lesbian witch hunts, we both left. However, I never left my feminist consciousness.

I also never left my desire and attraction to butches.

I guess you could call me a sex-positive feminist lesbian femme.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

Oh yes, handsome stone butch top; there must be fully informed and freely given consent for all things sexual!

I came out in the late 70's too, at which time the lesbians I met everywhere wore flannel shirts, baggy clothing, and they did not at all appreciate the femme that I was. Actually, at a couple of bars and clubs, they kind of laughed at me.

I did not feel like I fit in anywhere until I met my ex-who was stone butch at the time. She absolutely appreciated how feminine I was and my "femme-ness". I had finally found my niche in the butch-femme dynamic.

We were both very active in NOW but during the NOW lesbian witch hunts, we both left. However, I never left my feminist consciousness.

I also never left my desire and attraction to butches.

I guess you could call me a sex-positive feminist lesbian femme.

lol- omg you're bringing back so many memories for me.

I remember when I was 16 going to my first lesbian bar. I had fake ID, of course. Here I am with this long long black hair, big tits and wore the prettiest little sundress. I walked in and everyone was in jeans and button down shirts. They looked at me like I was a fucking alien. No one would approach me or talk to me. My best friend, also queer told me I needed to dress different. So she puts me in a polo shirt, levi's and desert boots. I remembering lesbians always questioning my "gayness" and they assumed I was a bored straight girl. I was attracted to butch then but the only action I got was from the crew of strippers that came in at 2am. lol They loved me!

As I grew older I was a wild child and would think nothing of dancing on bars and taking my clothes off. This didn't sit well with the lesbian feminist who were convinced I was a product of male fascination. But I learn early on that this wasn't such a bad thing and used it to my advantage.

At some point I decided I was wearing heels, makeup, lipstick and that if i wanted a butch dyke I'd have to chase them. They just couldn't refused but i certainly did scare the shit out of them.

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by Sachita

lol- omg you're bringing back so many memories for me.

I remember when I was 16 going to my first lesbian bar. I had fake ID, of course. Here I am with this long long black hair, big tits and wore the prettiest little sundress. I walked in and everyone was in jeans and button down shirts. They looked at me like I was a fucking alien. No one would approach me or talk to me. My best friend, also queer told me I needed to dress different. So she puts me in a polo shirt, levi's and desert boots. I remembering lesbians always questioning my "gayness" and they assumed I was a bored straight girl. I was attracted to butch then but the only action I got was from the crew of strippers that came in at 2am. lol They loved me!

As I grew older I was a wild child and would think nothing of dancing on bars and taking my clothes off. This didn't sit well with the lesbian feminist who were convinced I was a product of male fascination. But I learn early on that this wasn't such a bad thing and used it to my advantage.

At some point I decided I was wearing heels, makeup, lipstick and that if i wanted a butch dyke I'd have to chase them. They just couldn't refused but i certainly did scare the shit out of them.

that's so funny cuz i have this experience still today. i walk into a lesbian bar wearing a dress and heels and everyone looks at me like i have 6 heads. awkward!

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by persiphone

that's so funny cuz i have this experience still today. i walk into a lesbian bar wearing a dress and heels and everyone looks at me like i have 6 heads. awkward!

I seem to get the same look when I'm not carrying my motorcycle helmet adorned with a rainbow sticker. Seriously. After a recent accident and injury I had to temporarily change the way I dress, and I haven't been able to ride my motorcycle for stretches of time. Wearing softer pants and shoes to match rather than jeans and riding boots, plus the absence of my helmet which functions as a dyke badge, seems to cause people to assume I'm straight. Because I always rode almost everywhere I went, I haven't felt that ostracizing stare in women's bars and events that my femme sisters always talk about. Until now. Ugh.

Whoops! Derail over.