Justice as fairness: we can do better than we are

[The_Lady_Snow]

I may have fucked up by saying stuff cause I'm not as good with academic wording and I don't have your educations but I'm a Mexican woman living here in America as a non citizen, I have my past history on these issues to and continue to see my kin, people shit on and continue to be over worked under payed and sometimes killed. I'm ok with using my voice even if it's a voice from someone who didn't even finish highschool. Thanks for allowing me to participate.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I may have fucked up by saying stuff cause I'm not as good with academic wording and I don't have your educations but I'm a Mexican woman living here in America as a non citizen, I have my past history on these issues to and continue to see my kin, people shit on and continue to be over worked under payed and sometimes killed. I'm ok with using my voice even if it's a voice from someone who didn't even finish highschool. Thanks for allowing me to participate.

This is not about who has the most education, its about fairness, love and respect of our fellow humans.

ps. you have not fucked up anything!

[SoNotHer]

We all have different paths, and we all have different voices. And if your voice or any other voice wasn't welcome here, then the thread should not be called "Justice as fairness: we can do better than we are."

You have a right to speak, and I appreciate what you have written.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I may have fucked up by saying stuff cause I'm not as good with academic wording and I don't have your educations but I'm a Mexican woman living here in America as a non citizen, I have my past history on these issues to and continue to see my kin, people shit on and continue to be over worked under payed and sometimes killed. I'm ok with using my voice even if it's a voice from someone who didn't even finish highschool. Thanks for allowing me to participate.

[Apocalipstic]

Did Snow say Slavery was legal in the US?

If the point is we can do better, then let's.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Aj I'm pretty sure that's not what *I* said, I should have pointed out more clearly that slavery exists, illegal but you sure the hell wouldn't know it from the numbers, the women and kids left behind.. (SuperBowl Sunday a fine example)



If you're idea of this new world is going to work we gotta look at allllll the ugly I think that may be where I went wrong.

*shrugs*

[weatherboi]

I was under the impression She was arguing that it exsists...not that it is legal. I have read no where that She stated it was legal slavery.

Human trafficking is considered a modern day 21st century form of slavery...what is wrong with stating that opinion??

I don't think anybody here is negating that illegal slavery is different from 21st century slavery...what i see is people trying to make light this present days form of slavery.

I will say it seems to me that people do value other peoples pasts and histories in some sort of hierarchy form and fashion. This comes off as valuing one kind of slavery/oppression over the other.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by SoNotHer

We all have different paths, and we all have different voices. And if your voice or any other voice wasn't welcome here, then the thread should not be called "Justice as fairness: we can do better than we are."

You have a right to speak, and I appreciate what you have written.

No one has said that anyone can't speak here. Good god. However, I'm not going to just sit here and let people take my statement and then run it three times around the barn so they can, once again, inflate the United States into the most evil nation ever to plague the Earth.

Again, my ancestors came here as *property* not *people*. If one of my ancestors ran away and was caught if they were *lucky* they would be maimed. The law did not protect them. Their children could be sold--not taken from them because of abuse but "I lost a boatload of cash at the poker table, I'll sell a couple of slaves to raise the money". You, Snow, Apoc, are all arguing that this system is still legal in this nation because in another nation women and girls are being kidnapped and sold into slavery.

The argument, again, is NOT about whether it still exists, it is whether it is legal and socially sanctioned and to what degree that is true. Y'all are saying it is based upon the evidence of sexual slavery and sex trafficking. I say it is not legal or socially sanctioned because someone who kidnaps a woman in the United States has to fear being caught by the police and tried and imprisoned if caught. You are saying that kidnappers do not fear this because grabbing young women off the streets in the United States is perfectly legal because it happens. The kidnapper then sells the kidnapped to some other piece of walking scum. You are saying that the person who bought the woman has nothing to fear because holding her against her will is perfectly legal. The pimp then turns the woman out as a sexual slave. You are arguing that, once again, the pimp has nothing to fear either from having the woman as a prostitute or holding her against her will. The basis of this argument? The fact that sexual slavery is happening means that in the United States of America a man who kidnaps, sells, holds against her will and prostitutes a woman has nothing to fear from the law because these actiosn are legal. This is the argument being advanced. I would like someone making this argument to explain upon what evidence they base this belief that slavery is *legal* in the United States of America.

Cheers
Aj

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

No one has said that anyone can't speak here. Good god. However, I'm not going to just sit here and let people take my statement and then run it three times around the barn so they can, once again, inflate the United States into the most evil nation ever to plague the Earth.

Again, my ancestors came here as *property* not *people*. If one of my ancestors ran away and was caught if they were *lucky* they would be maimed. The law did not protect them. Their children could be sold--not taken from them because of abuse but "I lost a boatload of cash at the poker table, I'll sell a couple of slaves to raise the money". You, Snow, Apoc, are all arguing that this system is still legal in this nation because in another nation women and girls are being kidnapped and sold into slavery.

The argument, again, is NOT about whether it still exists, it is whether it is legal and socially sanctioned and to what degree that is true. Y'all are saying it is based upon the evidence of sexual slavery and sex trafficking. I say it is not legal or socially sanctioned because someone who kidnaps a woman in the United States has to fear being caught by the police and tried and imprisoned if caught. You are saying that kidnappers do not fear this because grabbing young women off the streets in the United States is perfectly legal because it happens. The kidnapper then sells the kidnapped to some other piece of walking scum. You are saying that the person who bought the woman has nothing to fear because holding her against her will is perfectly legal. The pimp then turns the woman out as a sexual slave. You are arguing that, once again, the pimp has nothing to fear either from having the woman as a prostitute or holding her against her will. The basis of this argument? The fact that sexual slavery is happening means that in the United States of America a man who kidnaps, sells, holds against her will and prostitutes a woman has nothing to fear from the law because these actiosn are legal. This is the argument being advanced. I would like someone making this argument to explain upon what evidence they base this belief that slavery is *legal* in the United States of America.

Cheers
Aj

Again, I want to be clear.

I am not saying slavery is legal in the US. I am not saying what you think I am saying at all.

I am saying, yes, we can do better.

[ruffryder]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

No one has said that anyone can't speak here. Good god. However, I'm not going to just sit here and let people take my statement and then run it three times around the barn so they can, once again, inflate the United States into the most evil nation ever to plague the Earth.

Again, my ancestors came here as *property* not *people*. If one of my ancestors ran away and was caught if they were *lucky* they would be maimed. The law did not protect them. Their children could be sold--not taken from them because of abuse but "I lost a boatload of cash at the poker table, I'll sell a couple of slaves to raise the money". You, Snow, Apoc, are all arguing that this system is still legal in this nation because in another nation women and girls are being kidnapped and sold into slavery.

The argument, again, is NOT about whether it still exists, it is whether it is legal and socially sanctioned and to what degree that is true. Y'all are saying it is based upon the evidence of sexual slavery and sex trafficking. I say it is not legal or socially sanctioned because someone who kidnaps a woman in the United States has to fear being caught by the police and tried and imprisoned if caught. You are saying that kidnappers do not fear this because grabbing young women off the streets in the United States is perfectly legal because it happens. The kidnapper then sells the kidnapped to some other piece of walking scum. You are saying that the person who bought the woman has nothing to fear because holding her against her will is perfectly legal. The pimp then turns the woman out as a sexual slave. You are arguing that, once again, the pimp has nothing to fear either from having the woman as a prostitute or holding her against her will. The basis of this argument? The fact that sexual slavery is happening means that in the United States of America a man who kidnaps, sells, holds against her will and prostitutes a woman has nothing to fear from the law because these actiosn are legal. This is the argument being advanced. I would like someone making this argument to explain upon what evidence they base this belief that slavery is *legal* in the United States of America.

Cheers
Aj

With all due respect Aj, we have all said slavery is not legal. Those voicing their opinions and talking about slavery are talking about what does exist, "legal" in the past and "illegal" now. We are dissecting and talking about each point you made with your initial post and discussing why or why not we agree and what we think about it now in our civilization and why it will never be peaceful or never be a "perfect society." Does anyone think slavery could ever be legal again in the U.S? because I think it can! I won't get into specifics. Just look at Hitler. It takes someone or a military with his mindset to come in take over and guess what. . yeah. Aj if we sat there with your initial post, which we all basically agree with we wouldn't be having a conversation here. We are all taking certain points and expanding on them. That's all. Is that what we do in this thread or not? Or are you asking us specific questions or just wanting us to agree?

I would like to take the the issue of slavery one step further however and say it is illegal in the U.S. I will not agree that it is illegal however in all countries. When Middle Eastern countries allow thier men to torture, abuse, and kill their wives for whatever reason they may want, that to me is legal slavery.

[Apocalipstic]

All the more reason for a unified North and South America. The war on drugs could be ended.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

All the more reason for a unified North and South America. The war on drugs could be ended.

How would that end the war on drugs? You think the citizens of what is currently the US are going to suddenly not be obsessed with the drug trade? It'll never happen.

Here's what will happen if North and South America become one huge cumbersome impossible to travel from one end to the other because it's just too giant of a land mass to be reasonable as a country country: The US will bowl over the rest of us. They will not compromise. The rest of us will be absorbed into the US life and the US mission and the US whim. It's not like merging is going to make everybody more like Canada. Merging all of North and South America isn't going to get equal marriage rights for all - it'll probably LOSE the rights that we Canadians currently enjoy. You know why? Because the US has the most fire power and the most money. So they'll get whatever they want.

I'm not sure why anybody would wish that on the rest of us. If the US is as awful and obnoxious as everybody says it is (and, you know, there are a lot of things I don't like about the US and I very clearly prefer Canada times a zillion) why would you expect that they would play nice if the countries were to amalgamate? It'll never happen.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I'm not sure why anybody would wish that on the rest of us. If the US is as awful and obnoxious as everybody says it is (and, you know, there are a lot of things I don't like about the US and I very clearly prefer Canada times a zillion) why would you expect that they would play nice if the countries were to amalgamate? It'll never happen.

Exactly.

I still think South America could benefit from some kind alliance. Not necessarily become one country, but a very strong allegiance.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

All the more reason for a unified North and South America. The war on drugs could be ended.

Can you actually declare war on inanimate objects?

And maybe I'm a skeptic but considering all the documented involvement that U.S. agencies have had in drug trafficking from heroin to cocaine it's hard to believe that their hearts are really in winning this war.

[nowandthen]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Can you actually declare war on inanimate objects?

And maybe I'm a skeptic but considering all the documented involvement that U.S. agencies have had in drug trafficking from heroin to cocaine it's hard to believe that their hearts are really in winning this war.

I had a paradigm shift around the term "war on drugs" back in 1995 when I was doing HIV outreach in rural areas out side of Houston Texas. I went to a conference in Austin for work and was in a workshop with a women who was doing outreach work in LA. She was in recovery and self-identified as Latino work in low income and communities of color and gave a great talk. The one thing I took away was here description of "war". She asked us if we knew what happened in a war, we gave different answers. She described it this way, " In a war, people die and we take prisoner". If we look back to the Reagan years, and the "war on drugs until today what have we seen? The government flooded the streets with crack, we had the drug laws that gave more time for rock cocaine vs powder, we got tough on crime with 3 strike laws, and we created the private prison industry.

So language that sound good on the outside actually is a system that has created what Michelle Alexander book, The New Jim Crow exposes which is system of laws that have created a permanent underclass that is in one form or another under the surveillance of the state (Jail, probation, metal institution, work release, etc). So for me the war on poverty is the same thing, war is a devastation not a construction that creates a world without poverty, in fact it recreates the need as a tool of marginalization, blame the victim for not have bootstraps. Ah, the 1% are good