When Will There Be Guaranteed Freedom From Persecution To Be Religious

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Fenchurch

Well, of course you are. I don't know you, actually, but I'll take your word for it at any rate.

What bothers me is that you seem to be so emphatic about confirming this and I can't help but wondering - are you trying to convince others or yourself. I've been an atheist my entire life and I've never doubted for a moment that my sense of morality is, at the very very least, equal to that of any believer. But unless I'm directly challenged (and, sadly, I have been) I've never really felt compelled to justify myself in any way. It doesn't seem like anyone here is arguing with you, but your posts are tinged with defensiveness.

I don't know what your situation is, however, and I don't want to judge unduly. Perhaps you're new to your sense of identity as an atheist. Perhaps, like a lot of people, you were raised to be a believer, and then went through some agnostic phase before you had the courage to name your atheism to yourself. This is a process that should sound familiar to any lesbian from an intolerant family. Or perhaps you live in an area of the country where your atheism makes you a target for mistrust and contempt. This is yet another situation that many lesbians and trans-folk can identify with. My point is, people on this site are less likely to attack than to commiserate, whatever their world-view.

That being said, I agree with everything you have posted. You are identifying a problem with our culture that, at the moment, is not being addressed. But you currently have a President who takes pains to show respect for believers and non-believers alike. People are becoming accustomed to the fact that atheists are not ashamed of who we are, and will not be closeted. It's getting better - too slowly, of course, but most change is.

I think you are really missing the point by focusing on Miss Tick's own personal psychology. The point of this thread is how the dogmatic, bigoted christian conservatives treat atheists. I think your choice to speculate on her perceived psychological motives for starting this thread is inappropriate and disrespectful, as well as off topic.

Respectfully,

Drew

[Cin]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I think you are really missing the point by focusing on Miss Tick's own personal psychology. The point of this thread is how the dogmatic, bigoted christian conservatives treat atheists. I think your choice to speculate on her perceived psychological motives for starting this thread is inappropriate and disrespectful, as well as off topic.

Respectfully,

Drew

Yes, my personal psychology is beside the point. Speaking of which have I ever mentioned how much I hate my name. And I get that i chose it. But still...

[Estella]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Yes, my personal psychology is beside the point. Speaking of which have I ever mentioned how much I hate my name. And I get that i chose it. But still...

I guess I was wondering (in print, which I should know better than to do) why you are so pointedly assertive on the subject; but you're quite correct, it's difficult, if not impossible, in this country to have any credibility as a moral individual unless you are also willing to confirm your deep and abiding religious (usually Christian) convictions. Which seems at best unfair, and at worst un-American.

[Apocalipstic]

I believe in complete separation of church and state and in the US we don't have that...

[Daywalker]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I believe in complete separation of church and state and in the US we don't have that...

Which always makes me wonder why State Colleges will allow any
Group to gather under a Religious notion, and then allow them
to Recruit or 'Honeymoon' new students. Many Cults have had
a field day with these allowances.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Fenchurch

I guess I was wondering why you are so pointedly assertive on the subject;

You say that like it's a bad thing.

You seem to agree. At least you say I am correct. So the problem for you is I was too assertive?

I guess I am wondering what is the point of believing in something enough to start a thread about it and not being assertive about my feelings on the subject.

[ruffryder]

I'm sorry. I would like to answer my own question. LOL I guess if you believe in some or all of the "10 commandments" it doesn't have to be about God or religion to you if you are atheist. some of these commandments can fall into morals. right?

I was not getting at that anyone that doesn't believe in the commandments or follow them is immoral or not religious or even religious, just to make that clear.. anyway, any thoughts on that?

[Estella]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Passion is never a bad thing.

[Daywalker]

I do not understand why someone would choose a Religion,
a supposed Core to their beliefs n such...then be
'afraid' to 'admit' their Choice.


Other than fearing for ones life in a crowd of (insert misc Religion) that
exudes abhorrence for their Chosen Religion...it just seems peculiar
to me to have a strong Religious belief in America
and not be able to disclose this safely.


Hence this thread, I guess.



I'm not Religious ~ My Core is Peace n Love ~ I Bless people from There.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by ruffryder

10 Commandments

I am the Lord thy God, ... Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Honor thy father and thy mother.

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.

Are the 10 Commandments not conflating religion with morality ?
If you believe in these, is that not being somewhat religious?? I'm not saying it is so, I am asking opinions here. Thanks!

Well, yes, the 10 comandments are in the Bible, hence religious.

However,

Just because you practice some of the ideas put forth in the 10 Commandments does not mean you are religious. These ideas for getting along as human and doing the right thing were present in writings older than the Bible.

Doing the right thing does not have to be religious. Am I making sense?

Originally Posted by Daywalker

I do not understand why someone would choose a Religion,
a supposed Core to their beliefs n such...then be
'afraid' to 'admit' their Choice.


Other than fearing for ones life in a crowd of (insert misc Religion) that
exudes abhorrence for their Chosen Religion...it just seems peculiar
to me to have a strong Religious belief in America
and not be able to disclose this safely.


Hence this thread, I guess.



I'm not Religious ~ My Core is Peace n Love ~ I Bless people from There.

Probably why some people hide being Gay, fear of persecution.

[Estella]

Originally Posted by Daywalker

[CENTER]I do not understand why someone would choose a Religion,
a supposed Core to their beliefs n such...then be
'afraid' to 'admit' their Choice.

I'm not an expert, but it doesn't seem like most people choose their religions. Most people, I believe, follow the religious beliefs they were born into, to some degree or another. Which is an extraordinarily powerful connection.

I've never met anyone afraid to admit their religious affiliation in public, but by the same token I live in a very liberal state. Which is not to say there is no discrimination here, but it may be far worse elsewhere. I have, however, met people who have hedged and dissembled when admitting that they are not believers. And I have never, ever heard a public figure do so.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Fenchurch

I'm not an expert, but it doesn't seem like most people choose their religions. Most people, I believe, follow the religious beliefs they were born into, to some degree or another. Which is an extraordinarily powerful connection.

I've never met anyone afraid to admit their religious affiliation in public, but by the same token I live in a very liberal state. Which is not to say there is no discrimination here, but it may be far worse elsewhere. I have, however, met people who have hedged and dissembled when admitting that they are not believers. And I have never, ever heard a public figure do so.

In TN people hide a lot of things.

[Daywalker]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

In TN people hide a lot of things.

Having lived there for 5 years, I must concur.


Miss visiting U guysssssssss.

[Apocalipstic]

While I do agree things seem better for Atheists since...say 1963...It seems idiotic to me that in a nation which supposedly stands for religious freedom, the freedom FROM religion seems like such a stretch.

I am not sure how the issue of Miss Tick's acceptance of her own moral compass came into question?

Something I have noticed in conversations with really conservative friends and acquaintances is that they look to not angering God as the basis of how they act, not on just doing the right thing just becasue it is right. Seems fear driven.

[Estella]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

Something I have noticed in conversations with really conservative friends and acquaintances is that they look to not angering God as the basis of how they act, not on just doing the right thing just becasue it is right. Seems fear driven.

I've noticed this as well, and have wondered how one's basis for morality can be based in fear. Or, conversely, they're attempting to please god as a factor in ultimate reward.

[ruffryder]

thanks for the thread Miss Tick. Here is one thread where I can expand my knowledge so ty everybody for thoughts. I didn't know all that Miss Tick.

So are we saying atheists can not run for office?? Or they can, but no one should know they are atheist?.. Oh I see, certain states. Are you asking how does this change? I think morals and religion can go hand in hand, am I wrong? Maybe it all should just be based on morality and ethics when it comes to issues of government and laws but then you have people arguing what is ethical and moral since we all differ on thoughts about this. Example : the death penalty.

I'm not sure where this thread is going yet but I agree those who run for a governement office shouldn't have to be religious however I feel they should be tested on their morals and ethics with everyone agreeing what that should include in a governement held position.

What happens when you have someone that is buddhist or muslim in a government position, does this change the morals or ethics?

Maybe I'm bringing up too much, but I'm just trying to understand what we are all talking about..

Thanks!

[ruffryder]

10 Commandments

I am the Lord thy God, ... Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Honor thy father and thy mother.

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.

Are the 10 Commandments not conflating religion with morality ?
If you believe in these, is that not being somewhat religious?? I'm not saying it is so, I am asking opinions here. Thanks!

[Cin]

Originally Posted by ruffryder

10 Commandments

I am the Lord thy God, ... Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Honor thy father and thy mother.

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.

Are the 10 Commandments not conflating religion with morality ?
If you believe in these, is that not being somewhat religious?? I'm not saying it is so, I am asking opinions here. Thanks!

Well, I don't think it is conflating religion with morality. It is the ten commandments. It is religion. And a fine moral code as well.

The problem comes when people believe being religious is necessary in order to live by moral codes.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by ruffryder

10 Commandments

I am the Lord thy God, ... Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Kind of funny to bring this one up in a thread that is about the pressure atheists feel to be religious. Also taking into account christian privilege in many Western nations.

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images.

Again, smacking of religious intolerance, as well as intolerance for those who are not religious or spiritual in any way.

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

See above.

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

See above. In many places in the Western world, many stores still close on Sundays in supposedly secular nations.

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Honor thy father and thy mother.

I will honour whoever I choose to honour. This kind of mentality contributes to what many abusers say to those they victimize. Particularly the children of abusive parents, who are so often told: "but they're father/mother. They love you no matter what they do." Gee, I wonder where that line of thinking comes from

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Thou shalt not kill.

I generally agree with this in the context of Western nations, except where immediate self-defense is concerned. Outside the context of stable Western nations, sometimes people need to be violent in order to insure the progression of their society or to insure their own survival.

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Normative monogamy, much?

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Thou shalt not steal.

Generally agree with this one...or would agree with it if current wealth distribution worldwide didn't leave certain people in extreme poverty. Somehow when a person is starving with little in the way of options and resources, their "moral code" changes...funny that. Or maybe it's society that needs to be reconsidering its "moral code."

Again, we're dealing with a sense of morality that only takes certain socio-economic situations into consideration.

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Agreed. However, I don't hold it against people who live in dictatorial situations, who sometimes end up doing these things to survive.

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.

Might I add: nor his wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ass or anything that is thy neighbour's.

I suppose, then, that my neighbour is a slave-owning straight man who sees people as possessions. Suddenly, I just lost respect for my neighbour

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Are the 10 Commandments not conflating religion with morality ?
If you believe in these, is that not being somewhat religious?? I'm not saying it is so, I am asking opinions here. Thanks!

Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal and thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour are conditional aspects of my own values that would be present in a Utopian society. But you know what they say about Utopias The others have some pretty horrible implications.

I would also like to point out that believing that murder is bad for society does not mean one has religious convictions. Neither does it mean that those values stem from the 10 commandments. These values predate judeo-christianity, and most human societies have placed consequences in place for such things as murder and theft since as far as we have evidence of human laws. These are not in anyway unique to christianity.

For myself, I really don't see these values as strictly moral, but as acts that require legal representation in order for society to progress.

[Cin]

I am not unaware of the dangers inherent in what is considered moral reasoning. So much damage has been done in the name of morality. Almost as much as has been done in the name of god. But can I hold morality or god morally responsible for the immorality often found in moral judgments?

Humanity itself is in dire need of a more socially conscious morality.

When talking to others it is most effective to use language that is meaningful to them. Right now in the U.S., and in Canada as well, that language is morality (I just read an article yesterday about whether Justin Trudeau is Catholic or Catholic enough to speak to students at a Catholic school), albeit the kind of morality heavily weighted with religious overtones.

When I speak of taking back morality from the exclusive use of the religious and incorporating it into the dialogue used by those of us with a social rather than religious conscience and agenda, I don’t mean to imply that a consideration of morality is a new idea for non religious people, nor am I even referring exclusively to non religious people. I just mean I’ve noticed that publicly and politically the moral high ground is often occupied by those of the religious right and those of the GOP while everyone else scrambles around trying to copy the same basic moral language. Which is difficult to do when one comes down on, what is deemed by the Right, as the morally incorrect side of an issue.

Often the answer to this dilemma has been to shy away from conversations or political speeches fraught with moral righteousness. While I tend to agree this would be most welcome, it will not be the tact of the religious right or the conservative party. So I advocate an about face. I am suggesting challenging the validity of their claims of moral superiority. I can think of endless ways that the Right does not act in ways that could ever by any measuring stick be considered moral, many that have been articulated quite clearly in this thread alone.

It would be in everyone’s best interest, religious or not, if our leaders and law makers who are possessed of a social conscience over a religious one would stop aping the tired morality spewed by the Right and begin, not only to clearly illuminate the moral weaknesses of the Right and show that the emperor is indeed without clothes, but to lead us toward a more just and equitable society.