OCCUPY WALL STREET

[persiphone]

this has given me a lot to think about. i think that we are confusing terms across the board. by very definition, "genocide" is probably not possible in America. because genocide is, according to Dictionary.com , "the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group." i think OWS, as a group, can't be boxed into any one of those wholly because all of those groups are included and represented in the movement in all of those individual descriptor's varieties. so what IS the term?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by persiphone

this has given me a lot to think about. i think that we are confusing terms across the board. by very definition, "genocide" is probably not possible in America. because genocide is, according to Dictionary.com , "the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group." i think OWS, as a group, can't be boxed into any one of those wholly because all of those groups are included and represented in the movement in all of those individual descriptor's varieties. so what IS the term?

Talk to a race of people it's happing to as we speak. Native Americans of all Nations.

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Talk to a race of people it's happing to as we speak. Native Americans of all Nations.

no, i know. and i debated with myself about including that lil tidbit of info and what we did to the Native Americans after arriving here. the numbers are pretty shocking. you won't read about that in our history books, either.

what i'm saying is, that the OWS movement contains all races, all political parties, all nationalities, and most cultures. so then how can we say that genocide is possible by the very definition of genocide because for it to be labeled as such, one specific group out of the above mentioned would have to be targeted. or.....are we saying that OWS is it's own political entity, much like a democrat or a republican? because i thought that the movement was much more fluid than that. so, "technically", it couldn't be labeled as on the road to genocide. is it as equally perilous? i think it's possible, yes. could it be as devastating as the holocaust? gawd i hope not. i wouldn't want to lose any more family, chosen or blood related.

[Corkey]

The human race is on the road to self destruction, we can debate all day long who that includes, but its safe to say we as a Nation are the ones responsible for out own woos, we've done it to our selves by not voting and by being complacent.

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by Corkey

The human race is on the road to self destruction, we can debate all day long who that includes, but its safe to say we as a Nation are the ones responsible for out own woos, we've done it to our selves by not voting and by being complacent.

is this where i can bitch about methods of voter suppression?

[atomiczombie]

A huge part of the financial crisis of 2008 was an out of control derivatives market. Derivatives are basically bets that corporations make on whether the markets will go up or down. It's WAY more complicated than that, but that's the best I can do in one sentence. In the late 90's a financial regulator in the Clinton administration tried to impose regulations on over the counter derivatives, and here's what happened:

The scary fact is that the Dodd-Frank bill didn't include any regulation of the derivatives market. So basically, there is nothing in place to prevent the financial collapse of 2008 from happening again just as easily. Gah!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by persiphone

is this where i can bitch about methods of voter suppression?

Yes, bitch!! Right now there are many voter suppression campaigns going on in many states, mainly via the Republican party.

The OWS movement ought to be moving us all to action, including fighting these efforts. There is a part of me that agrees with Corkey about how many years the 98/99% did not remain active in our democracy. We do have to participate in a democracy in order for it to represent us.

As much as I hate to say it- the Tea Party has gained power because it decided not to stand by and allow government run without considering the core values of those that "belong" to it. It went right into our political system via our democratic vehicles of organizing and voting in blocks. It has redefined conservatism in the US to an extreme that big business simply loves.

The work we need to do is far beyond protesting in the streets.

[Toughy]

If history does indeed repeat itself, let us not forget, the hippies were right. The Gulf of Tonkin never happened, it was the figment of the imagination of an over excited radioman...according to Robert McNamara himself!

Actually there were 2 reported incidents in the Gulf of Tonkin in Aug of 64. The first one did happen and the second one did not happen. It was the second incident that resulted in Congress giving Johnson the power to really go to Vietnam. Years later it finally came out that the second incident never occurred.

So yes there was a real Gulf of Tonkin incident (North Vietnamese navy firing on a US warship in the Gulf) and a fabricated incident a couple of days later.

[Corkey]

So apparently police brutality and genocide only applies to people living within the confines of the borders of the US. Correct? Um who do you all think the corporations test their stuff on first? Having been in the military and law enforcement do you not think I have a bit of inside information? Nahhh ... go ahead deny, it will bite one in the behind one day.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by persiphone

no, i know. and i debated with myself about including that lil tidbit of info and what we did to the Native Americans after arriving here. the numbers are pretty shocking. you won't read about that in our history books, either.

what i'm saying is, that the OWS movement contains all races, all political parties, all nationalities, and most cultures. so then how can we say that genocide is possible by the very definition of genocide because for it to be labeled as such, one specific group out of the above mentioned would have to be targeted. or.....are we saying that OWS is it's own political entity, much like a democrat or a republican? because i thought that the movement was much more fluid than that. so, "technically", it couldn't be labeled as on the road to genocide. is it as equally perilous? i think it's possible, yes. could it be as devastating as the holocaust? gawd i hope not. i wouldn't want to lose any more family, chosen or blood related.

I think maybe Nazi/Gestapo references don't translate well. I've been tossing this around in my head trying to put my finger on it. Nazi Germany is synonymous with genocide. I don't see genocide as an issue for the U.S. At least not in that a particular group would be targeted, other than dissenters. If the elimination of dissenting voices can be called a kind of genocide then perhaps we could worry about it.

I think what we are heading toward are police forces more like the Tonton Macoutes, the Haitian paramilitary force created by François 'Papa Doc' Duvalier, rather than the Gestapo. That we are looking at evolving paramilitary police forces around the country cannot be denied. That they seek to silence us and make protesting extremely costly is also without doubt. As things worsen and as more people feel the need to point that out, we may see our newly evolving police state turn deadly. The more clearly those who control the paramilitary police understand how easily it is to to shut us down, the more they get away with, the more violence goes unanswered by our elected officials or by anyone at all really, the closer we come to living in fear of our very own Tonton Macoutes.

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I think maybe Nazi/Gestapo references don't translate well. I've been tossing this around in my head trying to put my finger on it. Nazi Germany is synonymous with genocide. I don't see genocide as an issue for the U.S. At least not in that a particular group would be targeted, other than dissenters. If the elimination of dissenting voices can be called a kind of genocide then perhaps we could worry about it.

I think what we are heading toward are police forces more like the Tonton Macoutes, the Haitian paramilitary force created by François 'Papa Doc' Duvalier, rather than the Gestapo. That we are looking at evolving paramilitary police forces around the country cannot be denied. That they seek to silence us and make protesting extremely costly is also without doubt. As things worsen and as more people feel the need to point that out, we may see our newly evolving police state turn deadly. The more clearly those who control the paramilitary police understand how easily it is to to shut us down, the more they get away with, the more violence goes unanswered by our elected officials or by anyone at all really, the closer we come to living in fear of our very own Tonton Macoutes.

i was talking about the reactions of police to a corrections officer i know (and hopefully hy'll post about it *hint hint nudge nudge*) and basically our police force is not trained on how to deal with protests of this magnitude and are only trained in how to deal with rioting. hence, the riot response to a peaceful protest. my question is....now that they've used riot response tactics on peaceful protesters....will they step back and start practicing tactful responses to a peaceful protest rather than the overkill we've seen up to this point? i think that's what will define which road this is going to go down. i'm afraid that the police reactions are just going to escalate the violence and i'm afraid that this is actually the point, so that they have an excuse to continue along these lines of force and brutality.

[persiphone]

sorry if this has already been posted....looks like beating and arrests aren't just for dirty hippies, the unemployed, the eldery, and the homeless...

http://morallowground.com/2011/11/15...eviction-raid/

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by persiphone

sorry if this has already been posted....looks like beating and arrests aren't just for dirty hippies, the unemployed, the eldery, and the homeless...

http://morallowground.com/2011/11/15...eviction-raid/

Yes, anyone out there protesting could be subject to the insane methods being used by police.

And students that have paid tuiton, will be in debt when they graduate into an economy in which there are few jobs available to them. They are being pepper sprayed on campus while they are demonstrating passively and without malice.

I know that because I teach community college students, I have a bias, but, in CA, the rise in costs for students throughout our college and university systems has doubled in 1 academic year!! New increases are in the works as well.

A huge number of college students that were key in electing Obama 3 years ago will be finishing college by the time of the general election. Will they be supporting him??? They don't exactly have a lot to look forward to starting out. I graduated during a recession and when Jimmy Carter was in office. I didn't have many options and knew I would not be employed in the area I just earned a degree in, but, there were many more jobs available to grads then that they could take and build experience in the workplace and later do what they studied for. This is not true for our young people today unless they are in science and math and even then, the competition is great.

So many of my students were laid off and are seeking new employment skills. They have kids and are often working part-time to make ends meet. Some are returning vets that are not finding work. Community colleges have high numbers of POC also and are often the heart of smaller towns.

I see so much depression and fear about the future in these students. Yes, I eventually was able to work in areas I wanted to, but I don't feel optimism about this for kids in college right now. I have never felt this negative about this.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by persiphone

sorry if this has already been posted....looks like beating and arrests aren't just for dirty hippies, the unemployed, the eldery, and the homeless...

http://morallowground.com/2011/11/15...eviction-raid/

No, apparently they are also for poet laureates as well. Robert Hass, former poet laureate of the United States, tells about his experience at Berkley.
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/11/21-5



But you know we could post article after article, we could fill this thread with pictures, videos and stories about peaceful protestors being attacked, shot with less lethal weapons, clubbed, gassed, pepper sprayed and otherwise brutalized but to what end? The most important question of all is what can we do about it. How can we stop this? How can we make our elected officials protect our right to speak out and to engage in non violent protests? What can we do to stop them from silencing our voices? And why have we heard nothing at all from our president?

Here are quotes from the president and the secretary of state that are filled with concern for the peaceful protestors in Egypt. What about United States citizens? In the words of Obama the U.S. will stand up for human rights everywhere. Everywhere apparently but here at home in the place where he is president.

It's kind of scary to realize that these two people are considered to be liberals. They are two politicians that we would expect would defend human rights. And they do. Just not ours.

President Obama:
"I want to be very clear in calling upon the Egyptian authorities to refrain from any violence against peaceful protestors.
The people of Egypt have rights that are universal. That includes the right to peaceful assembly and association, the right to free speech, and the ability to determine their own destiny. These are human rights. And the United States will stand up for them everywhere."

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton:
"We are deeply concerned about the use of violence by Egyptian police and security forces against protesters, and we call on the Egyptian government to do everything in its power to restrain the security forces."

Here at home not a word. They are as silent as they wish us to be.

[BstlMyhart]

i was talking about the reactions of police to a corrections officer i know (and hopefully hy'll post about it *hint hint nudge nudge*) and basically our police force is not trained on how to deal with protests of this magnitude and are only trained in how to deal with rioting. hence, the riot response to a peaceful protest. my question is....now that they've used riot response tactics on peaceful protesters....will they step back and start practicing tactful responses to a peaceful protest rather than the overkill we've seen up to this point? i think that's what will define which road this is going to go down. i'm afraid that the police reactions are just going to escalate the violence and i'm afraid that this is actually the point, so that they have an excuse to continue along these lines of force and brutality.
__________________
".....one of the three femmes of the apocalypse"
Ok Persi…here it is.
I am in law enforcement. Although my area is in corrections, I do understand the actions of police during their conflict with the protestors of the Occupy Movement…NO I do not agree with some of law enforcement’s behavior.
Throughout history, anytime a police force is assembled to disperse a crowd, it WAS because a riot was taking place. People’s lives were at stake by members of society, property was being destroyed, and communities were under siege.
Yes, the “Sit In” protests of the Civil Rights Movement were intended to be nonviolent in nature. However, most of those protests took place in the south, where the vast majority of the police force was white, and did not agree with the movement and had the approval of a higher authority (Arkansas Governor Orval Faubus…Alabaman Governor George Wallace) and therefore were allowed to use brute force against those peaceful protestors.
We are taught levels of force.
1. Show of Force…a large number of responding units displaying their badge of office.
2. Verbal Commands…self explanatory…orders to disperse.
3. Chemical Agents…though unpopular they are effective in dispersing a crowd without causing long term physical harm.
Those are the first 3 steps and I don’t know of ANY officer who hopes an incident will escalate from there. Law enforcement agencies have not been taught a different way to deal with true peaceful protests. They are simply following orders…if they don’t they may well lose their livelihood…their families would then suffer the repercussions. I believe that no one involved with the Occupy Movement would want that to happen. New training must be implemented to assist these officers to do their job effectively in a new way.

Here is an example of doing to what we did, what we know now, and how many agencies (where I live) have evolved to deal with people who have mental illness.

Most psychiatric hospitals were shut down in the 1970s. The thinking was that money could be saved and those who needed care could and would receive it through local community programs. What has happened is that most did not have the follow up care they needed, they were not monitored to ensure they were taking their medications properly, and fell through all the cracks. At that point, those with mental illness found themselves getting into trouble and the population in prisons and jails nationally has increased to the point where those individuals now make up 50% of all those incarcerated. Over 1.26 million people incarcerated suffer from some sort of mental illness with 20% classified as “severe”.

By and large, force was the only way anyone in law enforcement knew how to control an “unruly” person, either by a patrol officer or a corrections officer. We now receive training on how to approach these individuals, “talk them down” when they are escalating, how to speak with them in a manner in which they won’t feel threatened to be able to help them, and how not to be afraid of the term “mental illness”.

Regarding mental health disorders….we know better so we do better.

This is the case with the Occupy Movement. Law enforcement has always been called to protect the community from uprisings, to protect lives and property in those times, and as always at a danger to themselves.

We show up in riot gear because the past has taught us that we are a prime target for violence and we must protect ourselves…someone loves us too and wants us home safe. And there’s always a bad apple on any side of an issue.

I believe in the right to assemble…though I don’t think our forefathers added, “For a permit fee” into the Constitution. I believe new training must be implemented to address the Occupy gatherings in an effective manner with much less force when possible.

I believe when we know better…we do better.

[Diavolo]

Originally Posted by BstlMyhart

I believe in the right to assemble…though I don’t think our forefathers added, “For a permit fee” into the Constitution. I believe new training must be implemented to address the Occupy gatherings in an effective manner with much less force when possible.

I believe when we know better…we do better.

The quote of the day. Straight up.

[greeneyedgrrl]

Originally Posted by BstlMyhart

Throughout history, anytime a police force is assembled to disperse a crowd, it WAS because a riot was taking place. People’s lives were at stake by members of society, property was being destroyed, and communities were under siege.
Yes, the “Sit In” protests of the Civil Rights Movement were intended to be nonviolent in nature. However, most of those protests took place in the south, where the vast majority of the police force was white, and did not agree with the movement and had the approval of a higher authority (Arkansas Governor Orval Faubus…Alabaman Governor George Wallace) and therefore were allowed to use brute force against those peaceful protestors.
We are taught levels of force.
1. Show of Force…a large number of responding units displaying their badge of office.
2. Verbal Commands…self explanatory…orders to disperse.
3. Chemical Agents…though unpopular they are effective in dispersing a crowd without causing long term physical harm.
Those are the first 3 steps and I don’t know of ANY officer who hopes an incident will escalate from there. Law enforcement agencies have not been taught a different way to deal with true peaceful protests. They are simply following orders…if they don’t they may well lose their livelihood…their families would then suffer the repercussions. I believe that no one involved with the Occupy Movement would want that to happen. New training must be implemented to assist these officers to do their job effectively in a new way.

thank you for speaking to this. while some of the officers may hold your view, i have talked to several officers in my state who have a different viewpoint... that seems to be that the ows are wasting everyone's time, money and energy and should go home and if they don't they deserve and should expect a violent smack down from the pd. i would love to believe that it is just a lack of training, but having known at least one of these officers (she is my cousin, unfortunately) i have to say that this is how she thought prior to becoming part of the police department. i believe that it goes much deeper than training, it is who the pd recruits, allows to wear a badge, it is the qualities and behaviors in the officers that are nurtured and encouraged. in cali (at least) it seems that officers that show a penchant for violence and power are promoted and rewarded. imho my cousin has NO business whatsoever wearing a badge and carrying a gun. her language is violent, angry and racist, she boasts about the power of her position, and quite frankly i am very glad that she lives some 400 miles away from me, but i know that there are many more out there like her. i know more officers like her. i also see from posts like yours that there are people in law enforcement who are not, and it gives me hope.

i see it as a complex problem:

that there has been some violence at occupy events (whether or not it was committed by occupiers is a whole other issue since the police still have to deal with it and it makes it more difficult for them to see the movement as nonviolent)

that there is space in current law enforcement systems for people like my cousin who are prone to violent behavior prior to training

that in the current system violence is used and expected (no/inadequate training on how to handle non-violent protests)

that the systems of inequality (that were present during the civil rights movement) are still intact

that the general public has been desensitized to violence

that politicians and the powers that be have a vested interest in keeping status quo and not reforming the system of law enforcement as it stands

coordinated (and illegal) federal involvement in local issues

and fear...fear on the part of the pd, on the part of the people and on the part of the corporations and politicians. i think fear is at the root of all of this. the fear of not having enough, the fear of losing what you have, the fear of getting hurt or killed.. it all comes down to fear and until people get out of the part of their brains that humans use when in fear, the ability to think rationally or critically, have understanding, compassion, empathy or any of the other wonderful things that humans are capable of is not possible. i don't know how it is that this system is going to be changed or by whom, but i know that a shift in thinking (and getting out of fear) will be key.

i really hope that you will continue to be part of this discussion as i think that your insights are valuable.