Trans News/ Issues

[Leigh]

I can see both sides here; I can see how it would be offensive but I can also see how some people won't be offended by it. I'm not at all going to defend Neil because even though he's a gay man and a hell of an actor, he still should have watched the words he used because yes some people will be offended and in this day and age we really have to watch our choice of words. If this was say 20 or more years ago no one would even bat an eyelash, but now a days its so easy to offend people so in reality its always best to watch what we say in general

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Matthew

I can see both sides here; I can see how it would be offensive but I can also see how some people won't be offended by it. I'm not at all going to defend Neil because even though he's a gay man and a hell of an actor, he still should have watched the words he used because yes some people will be offended and in this day and age we really have to watch our choice of words. If this was say 20 or more years ago no one would even bat an eyelash, but now a days its so easy to offend people so in reality its always best to watch what we say in general

I'm sorry, I'm just really surprised by comments like this and others about it being "so easy to offend people these days." It just sounds a lot like what right wingers say when anyone tries to stick up for the rights of marginalized people. Edit, I also want to mention that it has nothing to do with us being "more easily offended" than in the past. It's that today our rights have extended to a degree where we can even have a voice. In the past, trans people were not exactly thrilled by the treatment and "jokes" against our community. There are many transwomen especially who write about their experiences in the 60s and 70s. But back then, they didn't have the rights nor the voice to ever challenge it through any medium that would reach the mainstream. Nobody would have cared.

As far as the comments about it being "just a joke" and him "not meaning it," I also find that a little surprising to hear to say the least. Those kinds of defenses are also used to defend misogynist jokes. Often when men make sexist jokes against women they claim it to be "just a joke" and not to "mean anything by it." Same with those who claim its "just a joke" when they make homophobic jokes. Often joking about a group that is less privileged than you are emphasises that privilege.

I remember there was a topic awhile ago, maybe a year or more, about a comedy skit about lesbian "cougars." At the time I remember taking the stance that it was satiric. While I still think that it partially was satiric, I've now certainly changed my perspective as far as the misogyny and homophobia present in that "comedy." I'm seeing something similar here.

Transphobia, sexism, homophobia etc. in our society does not always take on a violent form, or a form where the perpetrator claims any direct ill will against the target group. Not everyone who is transphobic goes out and tries to physically harm trans people. I've seen many comments by cis people express disgust when they hear about the murder or assault of a transwoman, however, they still express that "even those these people are ill/deviants/lifestyle choice etc. etc. they don't deserve to be beaten." It's the same "hate the sin not the sinner" bullshit that has very damaging repercussions when it comes to how trans people are treated in every day life, outside of physical violence.

In our society transphobia, misogyny and homophobia are so ingrained in our ideals that people often don't even recognise it in themselves, and believe certain jokes and comments to be socially acceptable simply because they're the norm. I see jokes against trans people and other marginalised people as something serious, and especially when its performed by those who hold more social privilege.

I want to clarify again, as I have in the past in this thread and elsewhere, that I don't care if a trans person uses the word "tranny" as a personal identifier, just the way I don't care if a gay man identifies himself as a "fag." I do have a problem when cis people start calling trans people "trannies." It is an entirely different ball game. If a trans person assumed all trans people identified as "trannies" I would correct them. If a cis person made the same assumption I would correct them, but even more I would be weary that they even felt entitled enough to use that word to refer to trans people. Same with the word "fag" and other such terms.

As far as if I would be offended if a trans person had made the joke...yes I certainly would be. Being trans doesn't exempt you from being transphobic or having internalised transphobia, just the way being queer doesn't exempt you from being homophobic and having internalised homophobia. I've definitely witnessed a lot of internalised transphobia and self-hatred coming from trans people, and it's not something I support or see as conducive to establishing trans rights and respect in society. I'd also add that this observation is a big part of what motivated me to try to find trans communities that are more trans-positive, rather than always thinking others have the right to walk all over us and that we don't have the right to say anything about it.

[Toughy]

This is from my previous post and was not answered by folks who were offended. I really am trying to understand this and the reason I don't is in the question.

The voice reference most likely has to do with the changes in voice that occur with the use of T (and E). Is it offensive to make fun of a teenage boy when his voice cracks as it changes? It's the same cracking/change I hear when transmen start taking T.

and this idea of being really careful with words so as to not offend anyone is an impossible task.....and for some folks probably contributes to silencing out of fear of offending when there is no intention of offense....I frankly get tired of trying to find different ways to say something that is simple and straightforward and in the process garbling what I am trying to say......

and I still don't understand how the comment/joke was transphobic..........it's a joke about a voice change.....

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Toughy

This is from my previous post and was not answered by folks who were offended. I really am trying to understand this and the reason I don't is in the question.

The voice reference most likely has to do with the changes in voice that occur with the use of T (and E). Is it offensive to make fun of a teenage boy when his voice cracks as it changes? It's the same cracking/change I hear when transmen start taking T.

and this idea of being really careful with words so as to not offend anyone is an impossible task.....and for some folks probably contributes to silencing out of fear of offending when there is no intention of offense....I frankly get tired of trying to find different ways to say something that is simple and straightforward and in the process garbling what I am trying to say......

and I still don't understand how the comment/joke was transphobic..........it's a joke about a voice change.....

First of all, I find the use of the word "silencing" here is exactly what happens when that term is thrown around when a person tries to explain why these jokes have negative consequences for the way trans people are perceived and treated in public. Why is it "silencing" to ask people to refrain from making jokes that make fun of trans people's voices? Is it silencing to call men out for making jokes about their wives and girlfriends by making "imitative" high-pitched voices that are meant to sound "naggy"/fit in with the typical misogynist stereotypes? Is it silencing to call out a person who imitates the stereotypical "gay" voice, as derogatory towards gay men?

And the topic of voices and making fun of them is quite interesting. I don't think I've often heard a comedian making fun of a white, straight cis man's voice. Supposedly imitating women's voices is "funny" to many men, so that they can commiserate with one another about all the "horrid" things their wives apparently say and do. Imitating the stereotypical "gay" voice is apparently quite "funny" as well to a mainstream audience. As is supposedly imitating the voices of trans people, and transwomen in particular. There have been enough skits on Saturday Night Live and other such "funny" shows displaying exactly those situations. Notice how it's always "funny" to make fun of those who have less privilege in society. No, perhaps not "always." There are always exceptions. But by and large, that's the way things are. I find that troubling. It assumes a "normal" way of being that sets up certain people as the standard, while others are "funny" or "weird" or worthy of a laugh.

I also fail to see how such a joke is productive, and why the right to tell an offensive joke trumps the right of the person to speak out against it. Lately I feel like I'm seeing the same pattern. Someone mentions something as transphobic and people claim like it's "silencing" for the trans person to even mention it. People making comments about how "everything is transphobic these days," sounds a lot like how certain people talk about how "everything is racist these days" or "everything is sexist these days," and seems to call for a throw back to some kind of Archie Bunker view of the world when "men were men, and women were women" and so on and so forth.

Has it crossed people's minds that we have traditional engrained social values that are inherently transphobic? That there is a heck of a lot in our society that is subconsciously cissexist? That some trans people call out transphobia often because it actually is present in many ways that are socially ingrained and normalised? In the same way that our society possesses underlying sexist perceptions and values that are not automatically deemed sexist because they are so common place?

Does this mean that trans people who find these kinds of jokes offensive should just shut up and let the people who make these jokes continue to think that it's ok to do so? That there are no negative repercussions?

As far as the "voice cracking," I fail to see how that has anything to do with the story at hand. The actor's voice did not sound as though it was "cracking," he'd just inhaled helium, which generally heightens and distorts the voice in what is popular perceived as a "cartoonish" way. It's generally something people do that they think is comical. To compare the comedic "helium voice" to "sounding like a tranny" then implies that there is also something "funny" about the voices of trans people. That there is a "trans voice" to begin with. As I mentioned before, it's not exactly unknown for people to joke about the voices of transmen (aka the whole "chipmunk voice" jokes) and transwomen. To try to normalise such jokes and suggesting that it is even comparable to "oh well, people make fun of teenaged boys' cracking voices" is denying the fact that trans people are frequently the brunt of jokes. Teenaged boys are not. There are "tranny jokes," not "teenaged boy jokes." Nobody inhales helium and compares themselves to a teenaged boy. Trans people are nowhere near on par with teenaged boys as far as social acceptance, normalisation and privilege.

[Toughy]

thanks Ender.........we will have to agree to disagree on the subject....

[weatherboi]

Neil Patrick Harris portrays a sexist, straight, asshole on a top rated prime time tv sitcom. A lot of what he says on that show makes me clutch my pearls. The straight world adores him on that show. Our kids watch it and all their friends watch it and love the show and him. His joke helps support creating a culture of uncertainty when it comes to transitioning just like many of the jokes from his show are at the expense of women and people he values less than, once again supporting sexist oppressive culture.

Predicting how low my voice will get when i go on testosterone will be luck and genetics. It is only gonna deepen so much no matter how much T i take. I know it will eventually settle in to a different range but there is no guarantee my final result will be a deep enough range to pass or to relieve voice dysphoria anxiety. T causes thickening of the thyroid cartiledge in the neck. This is an irreversible change i will be taking on with a result i may or may not be happy with. All this knowledge i sit with has in the past caused me fear and anxiety.

Obviously i am not a teenage boy, the physiology and everything is just different. My everything in the throat area is not as flexible for growth, scarring and tearing because that is what is going to happen. Just like the cartiledge in the rest of my body will do as I work out this late in life to gain muscle mass. Lots of irreversible damages will be caused with sometimes often life affecting consequences fucking around with our bodies to become who we are. 10 years ago a doctor told me that i wouldn't need a hysterectomy while taking T. Now I am told that is not true that T can break down the cervix, atrophy i guess, developing a need for a preventative surgery orrrrrrrr i can just wait for it to become a life threatening situation and take it from there.

Where I live, I have seen a gay man belittle his lover by calling her a fucking tranny when he was mad at her. It is something that happens all the time. I have heard straight men and women refer to transgender women as tranny freaks. If I witness it used hatefully I am probably gonna get angry. If I hear it used by my community I am probably gonna say something depending on who is claiming it. What I am not gonna do is lighten up over it. It is wrong for certain people to claim or use the word tranny. Just like it would be wrong for me to claim and use the word lesbo.

[Linus]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...ef=transgender and yet another example of excessive police force. I can understand giving a ticket or whatever for public drunkness (if that's valid on federal land. I know in Canada there isn't any federal mandated drinking laws and federal land is covered by federal law only). But tasing?

[kannon]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

As far as if I would be offended if a trans person had made the joke...yes I certainly would be. Being trans doesn't exempt you from being transphobic or having internalised transphobia, just the way being queer doesn't exempt you from being homophobic and having internalised homophobia. I've definitely witnessed a lot of internalised transphobia and self-hatred coming from trans people, and it's not something I support or see as conducive to establishing trans rights and respect in society. I'd also add that this observation is a big part of what motivated me to try to find trans communities that are more trans-positive, rather than always thinking others have the right to walk all over us and that we don't have the right to say anything about it.

You have every right to feel offended by someone's behavior. It's your feelings, man.

For me, it's all about picking my battles. In comparison to other stuff, this seems pretty small. My .02 cents.

[kannon]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

As far as if I would be offended if a trans person had made the joke...yes I certainly would be. Being trans doesn't exempt you from being transphobic or having internalised transphobia, just the way being queer doesn't exempt you from being homophobic and having internalised homophobia. I've definitely witnessed a lot of internalised transphobia and self-hatred coming from trans people, and it's not something I support or see as conducive to establishing trans rights and respect in society. I'd also add that this observation is a big part of what motivated me to try to find trans communities that are more trans-positive, rather than always thinking others have the right to walk all over us and that we don't have the right to say anything about it.

There is a trans comedian named Ian Harvey who makes fun of his voice. I've heard him joke about sounding like a gay man on some talk shows and a promo.

[Corkey]

Making a joke at the expense of oneself is fine and dandy, doing it at the expense of someone who is not the "same" as you is another all together. I sure wouldn't make a joke at the expense of a Femme, or a Butch so why is it acceptable to do it to trans people? It isn't.
Picking ones battles is fine, but it may be Enders battle. I get this.

[Ebon]

Appeals court panel rules for Ga. trans woman in job discrimination case...

A federal appeals court panel today upheld a lower court ruling that Georgia transgender woman Vandy Beth Glenn was illegally fired from her job as a legislative editor in the Georgia General Assembly after she informed her employer she planned to transition from male to female.

"The question here is whether discriminating against someone on the basis of his or her gender non-conformity constitutes sex-based discrimination under the Equal Protection Clause. …We hold that it does," the three-judge panel of the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled. Judge Rosemary Barkett wrote the opinion for the unanimous panel.

Read the story on oral arguments held before the 11th Circuit on Dec. 1 here.

"There is thus a congruence between discriminating against transgender and transsexual individuals and discrimination on the basis of gender-based behavioral norms.

"Accordingly, discrimination against a transgender individual because of her gender-nonconformity is sex discrimination, whether it’s described as being on the basis of sex or gender," the three-judge panel ruled.

Glenn said today she was "giddy" about the news and especially pleased the panel voted 3-0 in her favor.

"I asked Greg [Nevins, Lambda Legal attorney representing her] if this was a precedent [on a ruling made so quickly after arguments. He said not in matters of national security or presidential elections," Glenn said. "So this is extremely unusual but I think it speaks to the strength of our case."

The state could appeal to the the full 11th Circuit Court of Appeals or to the U.S. Supreme Court, but Glenn said she believes the "end of the tunnel is in sight."

"I'm not kidding myself that this is necessarily over, but even if they do appeal the odds are not in their favor," she said.

Glenn mentioned she is going to Disney World in January to run the Disney World marathon.

"I feel I could fly the marathon right now," she said.

[kannon]

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business...s-lgbt-policy/

Check out the former employee's attitude. She claims trans is against her religion and that's why she wouldn't let the teenager use the women's dressing room. She followed her around the store because she knew "he was a man" and "h"e wasn't supposed to be shopping for women's clothing.

WOW.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by kannon

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business...s-lgbt-policy/

Check out the former employee's attitude. She claims trans is against her religion and that's why she wouldn't let the teenager use the women's dressing room. She followed her around the store because she knew "he was a man" and "h"e wasn't supposed to be shopping for women's clothing.

WOW.

OMG.

Really?

There are flippin' days when all I can do is say REALLY?

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by kannon

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business...s-lgbt-policy/

Check out the former employee's attitude. She claims trans is against her religion and that's why she wouldn't let the teenager use the women's dressing room. She followed her around the store because she knew "he was a man" and "h"e wasn't supposed to be shopping for women's clothing.

WOW.

I am really glad that Macy's fired her. That is impressive. Right on Macy's!!

[Corkey]

http://www.bilerico.com/2011/12/glen...d_in_georg.php


More than a coincidence.