OCCUPY WALL STREET - Page 2

Gráinne · 12-06-2011, 01:19 PM

I hope you don't mind my questions again

. I'm honestly not trying to stir things up, or even necessarily oppose all of OWS, but I'm a great pain in the neck, you have to give me that!

1. Let's say that OWS "wins" their #1 priority, whatever that would be. There seems to be so many goals, but let's say something equivalent to the desegregation of the Montgomery buses, or desegregation of Central High School. Both of those changed a great deal of lives, no matter if the people were involved with the civil rights movement or not. What is your "win", and what would it look like to someone not in the movement or associated with banking or politics? How would I know the difference in my daily life?

2. I read a terrifying little book in high school called Animal Farm, which should be required reading. It is Orwell's satire of the Russian Revolution, and I know some would say we're already there in our own country. I know OWS is run apparently without leaders, all are equal, and majority votes and all that. How would the movement, if it grows, handle the human nature to divide up into classes, as the animals do? The novel starts with good intentions and a utopian idea but goes haywire. If you do elect leaders, are they not more powerful themselves by definition?

I can see we'll never agree, but I'm trying to see your side.

GeorgiaMa'am · 12-06-2011, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guihong

2. I read a terrifying little book in high school called Animal Farm, which should be required reading. It is Orwell's satire of the Russian Revolution, and I know some would say we're already there in our own country. I know OWS is run apparently without leaders, all are equal, and majority votes and all that. How would the movement, if it grows, handle the human nature to divide up into classes, as the animals do? The novel starts with good intentions and a utopian idea but goes haywire. If you do elect leaders, are they not more powerful themselves by definition?

I can see we'll never agree, but I'm trying to see your side.

An egalitarian utopia is an extreme ideal. A democratic free market is also an extreme ideal.

However, human beings don't thrive within extreme idealism. It's impossible to come up with a system of government that treats everyone fairly in all circumstances. So humans swing back and forth between ideals - conservatism and liberalism, communism and fascism, fanaticism and atheism, etc. - and I HOPE (and in my more Disney moments I think most people hope) that we continually work toward some kind of moderation and balance.
Unfortunately, sometimes the momentum of a swing in one direction is too much. Then we become entrenched in some extreme and it's harder to get back to the middle.

I'm sure you can think of lots of examples when a group went too far in one direction: Nazi Germany, Jonestown, the Salem Witch Trials. When a movement goes too far in one direction, it loses touch with its source of critical inquiry, and therefore loses its integrity and focus on its original goals. In other words, it becomes a mob.

And since I'm on my soapbox, I'll say I think the U.S. has gotten disturbingly far away from its original goals. What were those? Why, they were written down and called the Bill of Rights. They were limitations on the government to protect personal freedom.

Let's review:

1. Freedom of speech, the press and assembly. OWS, police raids - exactly what we've been discussing here. (I used to work in journalism - the oldest joke in the business was that freedom of the press only belongs to the publisher - in other words, whoever owns the press.)

2. The right to keep and bear arms. Threatened constantly by liberals and conservatives, each in their own way. Easily obtained weapons cause problems. But still - if only one side has all the weapons, the other doesn't stand a chance.

3. Protection from quartering of troops. Well, we do spend a lot of money, and give up a lot of personal freedom, to maintain police forces and the military. But they aren't living in my spare bedroom and eating at my kitchen table - yet.

4. Protection from unreasonable search and seizure. Did you read those articles just a few posts up explaining how the police don't bother with getting warrants any more? They just send in militarized SWAT units to overwhelm with force. (And anything they seize, as in, "We found half a 20-year-old joint in your scrapbook so we're going to take your house and everything you own and send you to jail and we don't care if it leaves your family homeless," goes to finance their own operations - see #3.)

This is too depressing. Somebody else pick up here, if you wish. I'm getting down off my soapbox - I'm dizzy. If you stuck with me this long, thanks - you went above and beyond the call.

GeorgiaMa'am · 12-06-2011, 05:21 PM

Ruffryder - Corkey - Toughy!

Before you continue, as you like, may I please just use this as an example:

This is how the power of good, thoughtful, concerned people - which you ALL seem to be - gets sucked out of doing anything good and making any progress.

I wish people wouldn't give their power away by wasting it on matters that can't be solved immediately and which deserve further discussion and deeper reflection to reach a resolution. I wish they would just go to the bar and start a fight over a pool game or something else inconsequential, if what they really want is a fight. Or that they wouldn't go for the easy kill just to get some satisfaction during a discussion about decidedly frustrating matters.

Why wouldn't people who are trying to express themselves give others the benefit of the doubt? Why wouldn't they acknowledge that, although people may sometimes mis-speak, that doesn't discredit the entirety of what they say? Why can't they acknowledge that although others haven't explored some issues, it doesn't make their other beliefs invalid?

These are the only other people in the Entire World who are willing and able to engage with you at This Moment about something that is obviously important to you. I encourage you to appreciate each other, not tear each other down. Save your energy for the real fight.

Now please return to your regularly scheduled lives, and tear me apart as you wish. Or, don't.

12-06-2011, 01:19 PM	#1
Gráinne Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Neither, nada, out of the box Preferred Pronoun?: My name always works Relationship Status: Happy whatever happens Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Little Rock Posts: 1,864 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,117 Thanked 7,386 Times in 1,457 Posts Rep Power: 21474852	I hope you don't mind my questions again . I'm honestly not trying to stir things up, or even necessarily oppose all of OWS, but I'm a great pain in the neck, you have to give me that! 1. Let's say that OWS "wins" their #1 priority, whatever that would be. There seems to be so many goals, but let's say something equivalent to the desegregation of the Montgomery buses, or desegregation of Central High School. Both of those changed a great deal of lives, no matter if the people were involved with the civil rights movement or not. What is your "win", and what would it look like to someone not in the movement or associated with banking or politics? How would I know the difference in my daily life? 2. I read a terrifying little book in high school called Animal Farm, which should be required reading. It is Orwell's satire of the Russian Revolution, and I know some would say we're already there in our own country. I know OWS is run apparently without leaders, all are equal, and majority votes and all that. How would the movement, if it grows, handle the human nature to divide up into classes, as the animals do? The novel starts with good intentions and a utopian idea but goes haywire. If you do elect leaders, are they not more powerful themselves by definition? I can see we'll never agree, but I'm trying to see your side. __________________ The odds of going to the store for a loaf of bread and coming out with only a loaf of bread are three billion to one. ~Erma Bombeck

12-06-2011, 05:21 PM	#3
GeorgiaMa'am Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: High Femme Ma'am Preferred Pronoun?: Ma'am Relationship Status: widowed - involved, poly Join Date: May 2010 Location: Georgia Posts: 6,452 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 39,638 Thanked 28,508 Times in 5,821 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	Ruffryder - Corkey - Toughy! Before you continue, as you like, may I please just use this as an example: This is how the power of good, thoughtful, concerned people - which you ALL seem to be - gets sucked out of doing anything good and making any progress. I wish people wouldn't give their power away by wasting it on matters that can't be solved immediately and which deserve further discussion and deeper reflection to reach a resolution. I wish they would just go to the bar and start a fight over a pool game or something else inconsequential, if what they really want is a fight. Or that they wouldn't go for the easy kill just to get some satisfaction during a discussion about decidedly frustrating matters. Why wouldn't people who are trying to express themselves give others the benefit of the doubt? Why wouldn't they acknowledge that, although people may sometimes mis-speak, that doesn't discredit the entirety of what they say? Why can't they acknowledge that although others haven't explored some issues, it doesn't make their other beliefs invalid? These are the only other people in the Entire World who are willing and able to engage with you at This Moment about something that is obviously important to you. I encourage you to appreciate each other, not tear each other down. Save your energy for the real fight. Now please return to your regularly scheduled lives, and tear me apart as you wish. Or, don't.