OCCUPY WALL STREET

[Gráinne]

I hope you don't mind my questions again . I'm honestly not trying to stir things up, or even necessarily oppose all of OWS, but I'm a great pain in the neck, you have to give me that!

1. Let's say that OWS "wins" their #1 priority, whatever that would be. There seems to be so many goals, but let's say something equivalent to the desegregation of the Montgomery buses, or desegregation of Central High School. Both of those changed a great deal of lives, no matter if the people were involved with the civil rights movement or not. What is your "win", and what would it look like to someone not in the movement or associated with banking or politics? How would I know the difference in my daily life?

2. I read a terrifying little book in high school called Animal Farm, which should be required reading. It is Orwell's satire of the Russian Revolution, and I know some would say we're already there in our own country. I know OWS is run apparently without leaders, all are equal, and majority votes and all that. How would the movement, if it grows, handle the human nature to divide up into classes, as the animals do? The novel starts with good intentions and a utopian idea but goes haywire. If you do elect leaders, are they not more powerful themselves by definition?

I can see we'll never agree, but I'm trying to see your side.

[GeorgiaMa'am]

Originally Posted by guihong

2. I read a terrifying little book in high school called Animal Farm, which should be required reading. It is Orwell's satire of the Russian Revolution, and I know some would say we're already there in our own country. I know OWS is run apparently without leaders, all are equal, and majority votes and all that. How would the movement, if it grows, handle the human nature to divide up into classes, as the animals do? The novel starts with good intentions and a utopian idea but goes haywire. If you do elect leaders, are they not more powerful themselves by definition?

I can see we'll never agree, but I'm trying to see your side.

An egalitarian utopia is an extreme ideal. A democratic free market is also an extreme ideal.

However, human beings don't thrive within extreme idealism. It's impossible to come up with a system of government that treats everyone fairly in all circumstances. So humans swing back and forth between ideals - conservatism and liberalism, communism and fascism, fanaticism and atheism, etc. - and I HOPE (and in my more Disney moments I think most people hope) that we continually work toward some kind of moderation and balance.
Unfortunately, sometimes the momentum of a swing in one direction is too much. Then we become entrenched in some extreme and it's harder to get back to the middle.

I'm sure you can think of lots of examples when a group went too far in one direction: Nazi Germany, Jonestown, the Salem Witch Trials. When a movement goes too far in one direction, it loses touch with its source of critical inquiry, and therefore loses its integrity and focus on its original goals. In other words, it becomes a mob.

And since I'm on my soapbox, I'll say I think the U.S. has gotten disturbingly far away from its original goals. What were those? Why, they were written down and called the Bill of Rights. They were limitations on the government to protect personal freedom.

Let's review:

1. Freedom of speech, the press and assembly. OWS, police raids - exactly what we've been discussing here. (I used to work in journalism - the oldest joke in the business was that freedom of the press only belongs to the publisher - in other words, whoever owns the press.)

2. The right to keep and bear arms. Threatened constantly by liberals and conservatives, each in their own way. Easily obtained weapons cause problems. But still - if only one side has all the weapons, the other doesn't stand a chance.

3. Protection from quartering of troops. Well, we do spend a lot of money, and give up a lot of personal freedom, to maintain police forces and the military. But they aren't living in my spare bedroom and eating at my kitchen table - yet.

4. Protection from unreasonable search and seizure. Did you read those articles just a few posts up explaining how the police don't bother with getting warrants any more? They just send in militarized SWAT units to overwhelm with force. (And anything they seize, as in, "We found half a 20-year-old joint in your scrapbook so we're going to take your house and everything you own and send you to jail and we don't care if it leaves your family homeless," goes to finance their own operations - see #3.)

This is too depressing. Somebody else pick up here, if you wish. I'm getting down off my soapbox - I'm dizzy. If you stuck with me this long, thanks - you went above and beyond the call.

[GeorgiaMa'am]

Ruffryder - Corkey - Toughy!

Before you continue, as you like, may I please just use this as an example:

This is how the power of good, thoughtful, concerned people - which you ALL seem to be - gets sucked out of doing anything good and making any progress.

I wish people wouldn't give their power away by wasting it on matters that can't be solved immediately and which deserve further discussion and deeper reflection to reach a resolution. I wish they would just go to the bar and start a fight over a pool game or something else inconsequential, if what they really want is a fight. Or that they wouldn't go for the easy kill just to get some satisfaction during a discussion about decidedly frustrating matters.

Why wouldn't people who are trying to express themselves give others the benefit of the doubt? Why wouldn't they acknowledge that, although people may sometimes mis-speak, that doesn't discredit the entirety of what they say? Why can't they acknowledge that although others haven't explored some issues, it doesn't make their other beliefs invalid?

These are the only other people in the Entire World who are willing and able to engage with you at This Moment about something that is obviously important to you. I encourage you to appreciate each other, not tear each other down. Save your energy for the real fight.

Now please return to your regularly scheduled lives, and tear me apart as you wish. Or, don't.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaMa'am

Ruffryder - Corkey - Toughy!

Before you continue, as you like, may I please just use this as an example:

This is how the power of good, thoughtful, concerned people - which you ALL seem to be - gets sucked out of doing anything good and making any progress.

I wish people wouldn't give their power away by wasting it on matters that can't be solved immediately and which deserve further discussion and deeper reflection to reach a resolution. I wish they would just go to the bar and start a fight over a pool game or something else inconsequential, if what they really want is a fight. Or that they wouldn't go for the easy kill just to get some satisfaction during a discussion about decidedly frustrating matters.

Why wouldn't people who are trying to express themselves give others the benefit of the doubt? Why wouldn't they acknowledge that, although people may sometimes mis-speak, that doesn't discredit the entirety of what they say? Why can't they acknowledge that although others haven't explored some issues, it doesn't make their other beliefs invalid?

These are the only other people in the Entire World who are willing and able to engage with you at This Moment about something that is obviously important to you. I encourage you to appreciate each other, not tear each other down. Save your energy for the real fight.

Now please return to your regularly scheduled lives, and tear me apart as you wish. Or, don't.

Excuse me, I was answering Ruff, whom I know and not having a discussion with you. I encourage you to take this as good hearted as I answered Ruff. Sometimes it isn't in the delivery but in the readers mind.

[SoNotHer]

I think Toughy and RR are having a good if heated discussion, but I appreciate GeogiaMa'am's post and had to laugh a little. It would be ideal to have this discussion over a pool table and drinks. And yes, Corkey is answering question with a response that I agree with. If America is truly a democracy, then voting is a right. My most recent NAACP letter addresses this.

Of Animal Farm and its messages, it's probably good to keep a few things in context. The book offers a satirical look at early communism. Orwell himself was a critic of Stalin and Stalinist policies, had difficulty finding a publisher for the book because of this, and identified more as a socialist democrat. Through a glass darkly, the book explores the idea of common wealth and equality in a realistic and dystopic vision that ultimately leads to the realization that "some animals are more equal than others."

Of course Orwell gave us another vision in 1984 - that of three super powers, Oceania, Eastasia and Eurasia, in a perpetual state of war with the all-knowing and seeing ministries of truth, peace, plenty and love guiding individual actions, and thoughts ultimately toward a collective resignation of any other love before the love of Big Brother and love itself as an act of dissent. Scary stuff, or at least it is to me, and it feels like we're getting a little too close to this vision in our own realities.

[Toughy]

let us not get into literary derails.......I am currently reading the unabridged version of Stranger in a Strange Land. I grok in the fullness of time......when I don't...

Idiocy around the Constitution makes me unreasonable. I doubt anyone who has never taken an 'oath to uphold the Constitution'.......understands what that mean.

All y'all.............would you willingly take an

'oath to uphold the Constutution against all enemies foriegn and domestic' seriously...........

think about it............that means I will work to overthrow a government that subverts the Constitution ..........and I will do it in spite of orders from my superiors.........mutiny if required to uphold that oath..................

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Toughy

let us not get into literary derails.......I am currently reading the unabridged version of Stranger in a Strange Land. I grok in the fullness of time......when I don't...

Idiocy around the Constitution makes me unreasonable. I doubt anyone who has never taken an 'oath to uphold the Constitution'.......understands what that mean.

All y'all.............would you willingly take an

'oath to uphold the Constutution against all enemies foriegn and domestic' seriously...........

think about it............that means I will work to overthrow a government that subverts the Constitution ..........and I will do it in spite of orders from my superiors.........mutiny if required to uphold that oath..................

My allegiance is to the Constitution not any one party or government. I took that Oath as well, our elected leaders forget they took the same exact Oath and have forsworn to another (Norquist) They have perpetrated Treason.

[GeorgiaMa'am]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I doubt anyone who has never taken an 'oath to uphold the Constitution'.......understands what that mean.

All y'all.............would you willingly take an

'oath to uphold the Constutution against all enemies foriegn and domestic' seriously...........

think about it............that means I will work to overthrow a government that subverts the Constitution ..........and I will do it in spite of orders from my superiors.........mutiny if required to uphold that oath..................

Short answer: No, I wouldn't.

Longer answer: I understand the implications of oaths and why it's imperative that they be honored. I am really grateful that there are people, such as you, who take this particular oath and follow through with whatever is required. I am relieved that there are people like you who are on "my side". It is people like you who enable me to have the freedom to examine and critique and explore whatever I think will ultimately make the world a better place.

Believe me, I completely understand that if people like myself didn't have protectors, we'd be killed early in the fight and then the world would belong to the biggest military power, no matter what they believed in. They might even do a better job running the place. But it would be a world created by a smaller portion of all the people who could have lived and contributed and loved and worked and created, if the physically weak hadn't been protected.

Summary: I wouldn't take that oath because my loyalty is to Truth, Love, Beauty and the Universe. The power of Good. The Force. God/dess. Laugh if you will, call me naive, but somebody has to do it, or there will be no one around to point out the possibilities of what we could become. It's simply in my nature to be this way - it's how I think. So no, I'd never honestly be able to take that oath, because I would always reserve the right to question it, to make sure it continued to support Everything That's Important and didn't become misused and warped.

But thank you for taking it.

[SoNotHer]

If literature "derails," then maybe we should find another track. Writers and artists have been giving us visions of the past, present and future for some time now. And if these visions represent derailments, may we need to be stopped and taken off course and be forced to look at the paths we're on. Stranger in a Strange Land may well be the right place to begin our new journey.

The funny thing about democracy is that it's like conversation. It relies on patience, respect and a fundamental belief in equality. You may not agree with what someone is saying, but you pay them the respect of listening because that's what's right and because you want them to hear what you're saying.

Creativity, individuality, the promise of the human mind - these are all things I value, defend, cultivate and work with every day as a teacher and against increasing odds. And I suspect others on this thread do exactly the same thing in their personal and professional lives.

Originally Posted by Toughy

let us not get into literary derails.......I am currently reading the unabridged version of Stranger in a Strange Land. I grok in the fullness of time......when I don't...

Idiocy around the Constitution makes me unreasonable. I doubt anyone who has never taken an 'oath to uphold the Constitution'.......understands what that mean.

All y'all.............would you willingly take an

'oath to uphold the Constutution against all enemies foriegn and domestic' seriously...........

think about it............that means I will work to overthrow a government that subverts the Constitution ..........and I will do it in spite of orders from my superiors.........mutiny if required to uphold that oath..................