OCCUPY WALL STREET

[Toughy]

I'm not too impressed with breaking into vacant buildings and running through the YMCA to avoid arrest. I am also not too impressed with just marching around in the street.

Civil disobedience has to have a purpose or it's just mayhem in the streets. I have not been involved in any protests the last couple of months and I'm just not sure what is going on now has any purpose. I said along time ago that phase 2 needs to begin. Movements need a purpose and a goal to actually effect change.

As to flag burning. I will never condemn anyone for burning any flag, however it is their right to do so. My take on flag burning is this: Burning a flag is symbolic and indicates wanting destruction of what the flag represents. Back in my HIV/AIDS protest days I always tried to point out a couple of things. Don't burn the US flag. Our anger was not at the country, but at the President (Reagan at first). We should have been burning the Presidential Flag and the flags of the Senate and House.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I'm not too impressed with breaking into vacant buildings and running through the YMCA to avoid arrest. I am also not too impressed with just marching around in the street.

Civil disobedience has to have a purpose or it's just mayhem in the streets. I have not been involved in any protests the last couple of months and I'm just not sure what is going on now has any purpose. I said along time ago that phase 2 needs to begin. Movements need a purpose and a goal to actually effect change.

Well, unless I'm mistaken there was a purpose. I'm not in Oakland so I don't know. But Occupy Oakland seems to believe they had a purpose or at least their media is releasing this like it was their purpose to occupy just one vacant building and the purpose for the occupation seems logical and in keeping with the whole idea of occupying in general:


Occupy Oakland Media reacted to the use of force by Oakland police:

Yesterday, the Oakland Police deployed hundreds of officers in riot gear so as to prevent Occupy Oakland from putting a building, vacant for 6 years with no plans for use, from being occupied and “re-purposed” as a community center. The Occupy Oakland GA passed a proposal calling for the space to be turned into a social center, convergence center and headquarters of the Occupy Oakland movement.

The police actions tonight cost the city of Oakland hundreds of thousands of dollars, and they repeatedly violated their own crowd control guidelines and protesters civil rights.

With all the problems in our city, should preventing activists from putting a vacant building to better use be their highest priority? Was it worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars they spent?

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Well, unless I'm mistaken there was a purpose. I'm not in Oakland so I don't know. But Occupy Oakland seems to believe they had a purpose or at least their media is releasing this like it was their purpose to occupy just one vacant building and the purpose for the occupation seems logical and in keeping with the whole idea of occupying in general:


Occupy Oakland Media reacted to the use of force by Oakland police:

Yesterday, the Oakland Police deployed hundreds of officers in riot gear so as to prevent Occupy Oakland from putting a building, vacant for 6 years with no plans for use, from being occupied and “re-purposed” as a community center. The Occupy Oakland GA passed a proposal calling for the space to be turned into a social center, convergence center and headquarters of the Occupy Oakland movement.

The police actions tonight cost the city of Oakland hundreds of thousands of dollars, and they repeatedly violated their own crowd control guidelines and protesters civil rights.

With all the problems in our city, should preventing activists from putting a vacant building to better use be their highest priority? Was it worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars they spent?

How about a conversation with City Hall about 're-purposing' the Convention Center? Mayor Quan (not my favorite mayor ever) was on the side of the Occupy folks in the beginning as were several members of the City Council. There was political capital that could have been used in negotiations to do something useful with the Convention Center. But then they just thought up this Convention Center Occupy. Why not talk when you have an advantage. The government IS the people and the people need to talk to our elected officials in order to effect change in the government.

This re-purposing the Convention Center is a brand new idea that has sprung up because folks have lost interest in the closing of the port (it's not a good idea to continue that action) as well as playing chase in the streets with the cops. Do you think it makes sense to break in and occupy a basically windowless building vacant for 6 years with no lights, no heat, no running water, no sanitation and make it a library for kids and feed folks? Please.........that makes as much sense as pissing into the wind......

The teachers and the unions and the everyday folks have grown very tired of property damage done by anarchists and idiots who are not being loudly denounced by the apparent general assemblies. The cops are not spray painting buildings, they are not breaking windows and other kinds of damage to small business all over downtown Oakland. There is NO reason to throw things at cops, break windows, make signs that say 'kill all pigs' and 'fuck the pigs' and general bullshit like that. Childish pointless bullshit. And please..........how chickenshit can you be to run into a YMCA to avoid arrest. When I was an activist the whole point was to get arrested peacefully and the more arrested the better the press. IF they would knock off all that bullshit, then the police would not behave the way they do. This IS a two way street with fault on both sides.

Occupy Oakland needs to get it's act together. They are failing and failing miserably at helping the 98-99% in Oakland. Unfortunately they are actually damaging the 98-99% because of property damage and clean up costs. Services WILL be cut and the public library is already under duress, as well as the teachers being laid off and small business having to pay their own clean up costs from spray paint and broken windows.

Way to go guys......big help to your fellow 98-99 percenters......and what have you done to effect change in money in politics and the influence of multi-national corporations and their continuing destruction of our democracy?

[Slowpurr]

[QUOTE=Toughy;516720]

This re-purposing the Convention Center is a brand new idea that has sprung up because folks have lost interest in the closing of the port (it's not a good idea to continue that action) as well as playing chase in the streets with the cops. Do you think it makes sense to break in and occupy a basically windowless building vacant for 6 years with no lights, no heat, no running water, no sanitation and make it a library for kids and feed folks? Please.........that makes as much sense as pissing into the wind......
Do you think it makes sense to respond to the occupation of "a basically windowless building vacant for 6 years with no lights, no heat, no running water, no sanitation" with teargas, stun grenades, and less-lethal shotgun projectiles?

excerpt from NY Times January 29, 2012
Fleeing teargas but still trapped, people pulled down chainlink fences and scurried out through underground parking garages in order to make an escape back to the streets. I waited as long as I could in the stinging air before crossing the previously fenced-in property; police held their lines, preventing people from leaving any other way. From kettle to boil was only seven minutes. This does not sound like anyone was "playing chase" to me.

I empathize with what it must be like to be living it like you are. I think you hit on something with your two way street comment too. Although, having watched footage of the Occupy New York conflict as well as a few others I would have to disagree with your assertion that the police would act mercifully given certain behavior on the part of the protesters.

[QUOTE=Toughy;516720]
When I was an activist the whole point was to get arrested peacefully and the more arrested the better the press.
I think the movement is working the press angle.

[SoNotHer]

Thank you for the other news version of this and your comments. I appreciate both.

Of some other comments, while I don't condone hurting the American worker or American small business, I define "violence" as something a little larger and more grave than what comes out of a protest like this weekend's.

Let's not forget that a greater violence in the form of a hierarchy at full tilt with more than two-thirds of us under water or barely treading water is being perpetrated. And this violence and lawlessness is clandestine, codified, sanctioned, glorified and as insidious as a cancer.

I assure you the chosen few circling the upright bow of the boat care little for those drowning at the ship's submerged stern. And in fact, their grasp of the air depends on the weight that anchors beneath them that which, given a different thrust and notion, would capsize them.

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Well, unless I'm mistaken there was a purpose. I'm not in Oakland so I don't know. But Occupy Oakland seems to believe they had a purpose or at least their media is releasing this like it was their purpose to occupy just one vacant building and the purpose for the occupation seems logical and in keeping with the whole idea of occupying in general:


Occupy Oakland Media reacted to the use of force by Oakland police:

Yesterday, the Oakland Police deployed hundreds of officers in riot gear so as to prevent Occupy Oakland from putting a building, vacant for 6 years with no plans for use, from being occupied and “re-purposed” as a community center. The Occupy Oakland GA passed a proposal calling for the space to be turned into a social center, convergence center and headquarters of the Occupy Oakland movement.

The police actions tonight cost the city of Oakland hundreds of thousands of dollars, and they repeatedly violated their own crowd control guidelines and protesters civil rights.

With all the problems in our city, should preventing activists from putting a vacant building to better use be their highest priority? Was it worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars they spent?

[Toughy]

The Oakland Police Department is completely fucked up, has been for YEARS and Occupy Oakland and everyone else in Oakland knows that. Most of what they did was not necessary and a complete over-reaction. However that IS NOT the point and begs the bigger question of how OO moves forward.

I still say it is a two way street and communication between police/city officials and OO, has been completely lacking from the beginning. OO looks more and more like street thugs and less like a social justice movement every protest directly because of property damage to small business. Are folks condoning breaking windows and spray painting small businesses?

OO is NOT (in my opinion) working the local mainstream press angle or any other angle in any effective way. They are rapidily loosing the support of the 98-99%. I heard it today in 2 different local coffee shops/cafes known to be places you would find sympathetic folks.....ya know internet cafes with latte liberals and college kids and unemployed folks... The tactics they are using are not working.

It is the pinnacle of insanity to keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect a different result.

By the way...........I promise my social justice politics are far far to the left of most people on this website. I have been a staunch defender of the Occupy Movement from the beginning, however they are losing my support because of their own stupidity.

[Toughy]

One more thing about ALL of the protests in Oakland. The large majority of those arrested for vandalism and other charges do NOT live in Oakland. This situation was truly apparent in this last protest.

As a long time resident of Oakland, I do not want idiots who do not live in or contribute to my town to be reeking havoc in our streets and/or public buildings. Enough. I am glad Mayor Quan is requesting an injunction to stop those who do not live in Oakland and have repeated protest connected arrests from coming to Oakland. Go play in your own town's streets and public buildings.

Heard in my living room tonite from a person in their 20s who lives in the City (SF) and works at the Peets Coffee shop a door or two from the big Wells Fargo bank and offices: I work at Peets and the protesters came in and bought coffee before their last Occupy protest at the bank. Guess where Peet's banks....where my paycheck comes from? Wells Fargo............

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Toughy

The Oakland Police Department is completely fucked up, has been for YEARS and Occupy Oakland and everyone else in Oakland knows that. Most of what they did was not necessary and a complete over-reaction. However that IS NOT the point and begs the bigger question of how OO moves forward.

I still say it is a two way street and communication between police/city officials and OO, has been completely lacking from the beginning. OO looks more and more like street thugs and less like a social justice movement every protest directly because of property damage to small business. Are folks condoning breaking windows and spray painting small businesses?

OO is NOT (in my opinion) working the local mainstream press angle or any other angle in any effective way. They are rapidily loosing the support of the 98-99%. I heard it today in 2 different local coffee shops/cafes known to be places you would find sympathetic folks.....ya know internet cafes with latte liberals and college kids and unemployed folks... The tactics they are using are not working.

It is the pinnacle of insanity to keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect a different result.

By the way...........I promise my social justice politics are far far to the left of most people on this website. I have been a staunch defender of the Occupy Movement from the beginning, however they are losing my support because of their own stupidity.

Toughy- anyone that knows you could not view as anything other than far left and a defender of the core ideas of the Occupy movement.

I personally find this a difficult situation because the Occupy movement has and is making a difference nationally across cultures, economic class, gender, etc. In fact, there are now some agreeing from Wall Street about key factors the movement is calling out.

Yes, the OO people that do not live and work or struggle in Oakland have been at the seat of OO problems and are turning off many of us here in the East Bay Area.

[SoNotHer]

[Toughy]

.....said in my most gentle tone..........

.....video/audio/talk of only police violence (or peaceful protest) serves neither side and does not one single thing to help change the inherent violence of unfettered capitalism as both an economic and political paradigm.....

capitalism is an economic system that values money/individual profit/the free market over democracy

Democracy is a political system that protects the people from the carpetbaggers and industrialists............democracy does it's best to create a socially and economically just society....

economic systems are egotistical and political systems are altruistic..

democracy is a political system with capitalism being the economic system......the political systems job is to protect and serve the people, not the corporations with a profit motive.


uhhhhh..........exactly what has the Occupy Oakland group done to dispel the violence of poverty? I have a friend who teaches in an elementary school in downtown Oakland. She has spent HOURS of her limited classroom time calming the fears of the kids just trying to go to school and learn to read and write................why are the protesters in downtown Oakland and not out in the affluent neighborhood terrorizing those children who are mostly white? Why are the OO protests scaring the shit out of mostly kids of color in downtown schools?

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I'm not too impressed with breaking into vacant buildings and running through the YMCA to avoid arrest. I am also not too impressed with just marching around in the street.

Civil disobedience has to have a purpose or it's just mayhem in the streets. I have not been involved in any protests the last couple of months and I'm just not sure what is going on now has any purpose. I said along time ago that phase 2 needs to begin. Movements need a purpose and a goal to actually effect change.

As to flag burning. I will never condemn anyone for burning any flag, however it is their right to do so. My take on flag burning is this: Burning a flag is symbolic and indicates wanting destruction of what the flag represents. Back in my HIV/AIDS protest days I always tried to point out a couple of things. Don't burn the US flag. Our anger was not at the country, but at the President (Reagan at first). We should have been burning the Presidential Flag and the flags of the Senate and House.

Thank you! I know I am having some trouble being from this area and experiencing very contrasting Occupy protests around us (SF, our northern CA UC campuses including Cal Berkeley & UC Davis) and what is going on in Oakland- and judgements from outside of our geographical area. I also think there is a core Occupy group in Oakland that does represent what is positive about the movement. But many have left to join other cities in the movement due to how destructive and yes, dangerous, Oakland has become.

This bothers me a lot because as an East Bay Area resident, I have always felt that Oakland itself always gets demonized no matter what is going on. And it has some of the strongest grass roots/community organizing history in CA and the nation when we look at the history of social movements.

Occupy Oakland has hurt important segments of the 98% in ways I just can't get behind. It is taking away the very resources that so many people in Oakland need. And there is a very vibrant African American (that is quite young) business community in Oakland that have struggled and fought to re-vitalize areas of the city in order to build stronger foundations for their youth that I see being victimized by the antics of OO. It hurts to see this and their pain.

I agree with what you say about flag burning, too.