Why do we call the US America?

[sharkchomp]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I think it is important that when we are speaking of the US in particular we say US.

It seems pretty racist, classist and arrogant to say otherwise.

Apocalipstic

I know you personally and I respect you and adore you but I just don't buy this. I think those words are huge - racist, classist and arrogant and because I call myself an American doesn't mean I put a check mark by each one. I was raised and taught in school by TEACHERS to call myself an American. I've never heard of a United Statian til this thread. Perhaps not knowing this stuff makes me ignorant but I'd say it's a far leap from racist, classist and arrogant.

I respect your point of view. I know you've lived outside of the United States and that you're well traveled. I am not and honestly, I am not a big travelor. I think I'll stick to the United States and Canada for fishing on occassion.

I'd love for you and Mr C to come over, pick your poison(beverage) and you can tell me why I'm wrong

~~~shark~~~~~~~

[Apocalipstic]

So, even though people in the rest of the Americas find it loathsome and arrogant that we insist that we are the "Americans" and not them, we say that since "American" is easier to verbalize and since we learned to say "American" in school it is not worth even giving a thought to how it might make sound or feel to another American who lives in Columbia or Panama or Honduras.

Nice.

I know many of you personally and I really think it is worth at least some consideration. It makes us and our country look like assholes.
For me it is an important distinction.

Is it a class issue??? Good question. Maybe more of an arrogant, we have always done it this way, it is easier, I don't think I should have to change for anyone else thing with some racism below the surface. There are indeed wealthy people in outside the US who hate us calling ourselves Americans, so maybe that takes classism off the table?

I think the thought that people outside the US except Canada are fussy for resenting us for this is really really arrogant. Yes, I know we were brought up to think this and taught to think this in school, but the world is changing, we need to catch up.

[Apocalipstic]

I do want to say that I understand that for many of us this might be a low priority. I am just happy that we can have these discussions and hope that they will make us think a bit.

I thank everyone who is participating is this and other discussions like it.

[sharkchomp]

Now wait... are we not the United States of America that live in North America? Or are we just the United States. Does it not say on our declaration of independence, the United States of America?

I don't mind learning something new or looking at things in different ways, but why is it that I'm all the sudden racist, classist and arrogant? Perhaps I'm ignorant, plain fucking stupid or just misinformed. I invite discussions and expanding my mind but I loathe doing it from the stand point of "didn't you know you suck?".

I still adore you Jen and respect you immensely, we're just talking here.

~~~shark~~~~~~~~

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by sharkchomp

Now wait... are we not the United States of America that live in North America? Or are we just the United States. Does it not say on our declaration of independence, the United States of America?

I don't mind learning something new or looking at things in different ways, but why is it that I'm all the sudden racist, classist and arrogant? Perhaps I'm ignorant, plain fucking stupid or just misinformed. I invite discussions and expanding my mind but I loathe doing it from the stand point of "didn't you know you suck?".

I still adore you Jen and respect you immensely, we're just talking here.

~~~shark~~~~~~~~

Sorry I came off so strongly...I owe you a drink my friend! I do feel deeply about this, but understand this may be the first time you have thought about it , and that it is likely not a priority for you.

Sure we are American! and so is everyone else who lives in North, South and Central America.

I think as a country, if we refered to our country as the "US", instead of as "America" it is more respectful to all the other American's and it might help our image overseas.

I get that you might think what other countries think of us is not important, but it really is even if you don't plan to travel thoughhhhh....the fishing in Argentina and Chile is unbelievable, I will show you pictures that will make you weep . The Argentines and Chileans are American's too.

I think it helps us all be more safe when traveling and as a nation here at home if we try to be respectful of the rest of the world. We are not the "only" Americans.


Am I making sense?

[Boots13]

Hmmm, seems like both continents have been called America since the 1500's , or so...
wouldnt that make us all Americans?

yet even today Italians dont call it America but rather Stati Uniti

" Amerigo Vespucci was a Florentine merchant and navigator who made at least two transatlantic trips to the New World, voyages that inspired cartographer Martin Wardseemüller to label the new continent "America" in 1507. Vespucci was employed by the Florentine Medici family as a representative for their operations in Seville, Spain. He went from supplying ships to joining the expedition of Alonso Ojeda as a navigator. Although the record is unclear, it is generally accepted that Vespucci sailed with Ojeda to the northeastern coast of South America in 1499, under the flag of Spain. He made a second voyage in 1502. The story that he reached South America in 1497 is held to be apocryphal; the story that he made a fourth voyage in 1504 is also considered suspect. Somehow an account of a 1497 voyage was published, and Wardseemüller came to believe that Vespucci had commanded the expedition and had reached the New World before Christopher Columbus who found the mainland in 1498. Wardseemüller named the continent America and the label stuck. "

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Boots13

Hmmm, seems like both continents have been called America since the 1500's , or so...
wouldnt that make us all Americans?

yet even today Italians dont call it America but rather Stati Uniti

" Amerigo Vespucci was a Florentine merchant and navigator who made at least two transatlantic trips to the New World, voyages that inspired cartographer Martin Wardseemüller to label the new continent "America" in 1507. Vespucci was employed by the Florentine Medici family as a representative for their operations in Seville, Spain. He went from supplying ships to joining the expedition of Alonso Ojeda as a navigator. Although the record is unclear, it is generally accepted that Vespucci sailed with Ojeda to the northeastern coast of South America in 1499, under the flag of Spain. He made a second voyage in 1502. The story that he reached South America in 1497 is held to be apocryphal; the story that he made a fourth voyage in 1504 is also considered suspect. Somehow an account of a 1497 voyage was published, and Wardseemüller came to believe that Vespucci had commanded the expedition and had reached the New World before Christopher Columbus who found the mainland in 1498. Wardseemüller named the continent America and the label stuck. "

Absolutely! We are all Americans. North, Central and South America...all of us American.

[sharkchomp]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Sorry I came off so strongly...I owe you a drink my friend! I do feel deeply about this, but understand this may be the first time you have thought about it , and that it is likely not a priority for you.

Sure we are American! and so is everyone else who lives in North, South and Central America.

I think as a country, if we refered to our country as the "US", instead of as "America" it is more respectful to all the other American's and it might help our image overseas.

I get that you might think what other countries think of us is not important, but it really is even if you don't plan to travel thoughhhhh....the fishing in Argentina and Chile is unbelievable, I will show you pictures that will make you weep . The Argentines and Chileans are American's too.

I think it helps us all be more safe when traveling and as a nation here at home if we try to be respectful of the rest of the world. We are not the "only" Americans.


Am I making sense?

No worries dear friend!!!! You're absolutely right, I have never once thought about this. I was taught that I am an American. I say that with pride. I love my country. I am often shocked at how much the world hates us. I found this out first hand when I traveled to Jamaca(conflict, guards, locals told us to go home, uncool!). I can promise you that I won't go back there. As far as our politics go, I wish we would leave the world alone. Help those in need such as Haiti but concentrate on our own problems.

I do think it's important what other nations think of us, but does me calling myself a US citizen rather than an American really make that big of an impact? I would think the actions of our government make a far greater impact. That said, I would hope my calling myself an American would in no way make anyone in another country feel negated. In fact, if we all are Americans here in the West, then it's a true statement, albeit a very general one.

So, if I'm ever in another country (unlikely unless Canada), I'll be sure to say I am from the United States for the sake of peace and respect. And I can't wait to see your fishing pictures!!!!!!!

~~~shark~~~~~~~~

[Bit]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

"I think it's because people in Europe were used to calling it "America" long before there were any independent countries here"

I am sorry, but I take offense to this part of your post. Where exactly is here?

And when Europeans called it America they were referring to the continent, not the US. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerigo_Vespucci

When I said, "before there were any independent countries here" I meant on the two continents named America, and I myself made it pretty doggoned clear in that post that Europeans referred to the continent as "America." I really don't see how anyone could have missed that, given the rest of my post... but hey, I italicized it this time just to make it clear.

[Write14u]

snips:

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Sure we are American! and so is everyone else who lives in North, South and Central America.

I think as a country, if we refered to our country as the "US", instead of as "America" it is more respectful to all the other American's and it might help our image overseas.


I think it helps us all be more safe when traveling and as a nation here at home if we try to be respectful of the rest of the world. We are not the "only" Americans.

Totally getting your point here ... and with the thread as well.
But, as Waldo said, it doesn't seem like anyone from South or Central America or Canada is rushing to call themselves "Americans" and who could blame them, based on the rep those from the U.S. have abroad. (although...can we say STEREOTYPE, much? Is every person from the U.S a loud obnoxious "American?")

Also, for any Canadians, Central/South Americans (and I'm legit asking this) ... what is stopping you from calling yourselves Americans if you want to since you ARE indeed Americans?

Back to what you said about saying "from the U.S." ... well, according to the Declaration of Independence, the name of this country *is* the United States of America. It seems like most countries have a derivative to refer to its citizens, such as Argentinian, Brazilian, Chilean, Canadian, Guatamalen, Columbian. "American" does seem like a natural progression for people from the U.S.
I, too, wonder what other name would work (without being derogatory) as United Statsian a) seems unwieldy and b) leaves out what we're the united states of. Maybe our forefathers should have called us the United States in the Americas. But I don't think all of them were that well traveled enough to understand how much more there was out there.

How does it make people from the U.S. dismissive, arrogant and possibly racist if they choose to call themselves Americans ... if those from South and Central America don't choose to call themselves that?

I certainly understand and respect the viewpoint of others who are also obviously Americans, but I don't think U.S. citizens identifying themselves as Americans means they're racist or arrogant or dismissive unless they're denying someone else the right to do so as well.

And speaking of arrogant ... Yanks, gringos? ... That's just stereotyping and making generalizations, as well.

I think awareness of this issue is a great thing to have. But it seems to me the correct word usage might be "unaware" as opposed to dismissive. Simply because someone was taught they were an "American," doesn't mean they're being dismissive of others. Let's teach people instead of simply generalizing about an entire nation.

And for the record, I ascribe the U.S.'s bad rep abroad to the same "Jeff Foxworthy theory" about the South. He jokes that it's "always the least intelligent among us that ends up on TV." I'm sure there are plenty of people from the U.S. who travel the world without drawing the word obnoxious, but damn those idiots that give us all a bad reputation.

Just my thoughts and opinions anyway.

[Unndunn]

When I saw the title of this thread I assumed it was a question, but that was before I read the first few posts and saw that there was already an answer given. Is everyone with a different opinion on this subject an arrogant, classist, racist? I hope not.

My reason for referring to my country as the United States of America or my nationality as American is because that's what our country is named. When the founding fathers of the USA wrote our Declaration of Independence, that's what they called it. Were the people of South America referring to any of their countries as "America" at the same time, or calling themselves "Americans"? If so, Jefferson and Adams and Franklin and everyone else involved back then owe them an apology.

My understanding has been that the USA is the only country with "America" in its title. If I'm wrong I'm sure someone here will point it out. I think we shorten the name of our country because it's easier to say.

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Unndunn

My reason for referring to my country as the United States of America or my nationality as American is because that's what our country is named. When the founding fathers of the USA wrote our Declaration of Independence, that's what they called it. Were the people of South America referring to any of their countries as "America" at the same time, or calling themselves "Americans"? If so, Jefferson and Adams and Franklin and everyone else involved back then owe them an apology.

My understanding has been that the USA is the only country with "America" in its title. If I'm wrong I'm sure someone here will point it out. I think we shorten the name of our country because it's easier to say.

I respect your reason for calling yourself American, I do. In the end you call yourself an American just because it is easier, shortening and all, not because it is what your country was named, otherwise you would have to call yourself a United States of America, right? So it all boils down to easy and not accuracy. I understand this, as I do this many times myself (my entire family are all US Citizens) but basically, what I think Apocalisptic was trying to do was raise awareness. The forefathers also wrote about the right to own slaves and such, this doesn't mean they owe anyone an apology, that would be impossible. In any event, they did not name the US America, since that was already taken by an entire continent, did they?

I think what is lacking is the knowledge that America is a continent. I did some consulting work for a Canadian firm and they always made the distinction and that made me aware that this was a US thing. Whenever they referred to the way they did things in Canada or the US as opposed to here in Colombia, they always said...oh this is how this or that is done in North America. I found that very respectful.

Originally Posted by Bit

When I said, "before there were any independent countries here" I meant on the two continents named America, and I myself made it pretty doggoned clear in that post that Europeans referred to the continent as "America." I really don't see how anyone could have missed that, given the rest of my post... but hey, I italicized it this time just to make it clear.

Thank you for the clarification, albeit a little snarky. Judging by your clarification, I must be pretty darn stupid, he he

[suebee]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I do want to say that I understand that for many of us this might be a low priority. I am just happy that we can have these discussions and hope that they will make us think a bit.

I thank everyone who is participating is this and other discussions like it.

Priority/Not priority: I don't see it as either. I see it more as an exercise in self-awareness. Since the U.S. has such a huge influence in the world, since the U.S. has such an overwhelming stake in communications, entertainment etc. it can be hard for people living in the U.S. to imagine how the country is seen from outside of it's boundaries. Honestly I'm surprised that there as many "Americans" as there have been who have come on this thread and seem to have considered this question already. I live on the U.S./Canadian border, interact with my neighbours to the south on an almost daily basis, and seldom see as much awareness of this issue as I have here.

It seems kinda like the topic of white privilege: when it's all normal for you then it's pretty damned hard to think of how it's perceived by others, affects others, affects you yourself.

Great discussion. Great thread.