only another butch would understand

[Tommi]

God Morning Jess, nice post.. I am on my way to Sears this am for some more Craftsman Love. My girl loves tools, but willingly and lovingly lets me do the fun stuff, cuz my she likes that suspender snapping peacock strutting way it makes us feel to do things.(take literally)

Wow..I am away for 24 hours and ...the butch world comes out form the shadows and starts burping..

My Mama woulda decked me had I done either, but that's beside the point. But my uncle's were allowed to have conteststs..anyway.

Haven't read all the posts, and won't ....but, here is what came to my mind when I saw the title on the front page this morning.

Only a Butch would understand, that nod we have for each other as we pass each other on the street, or in a restaurant.

Only a Butch would understand that glance she gives us in the mirror when she sees us smiling as she applies her lipstick.

Only a butch would understand, another butch

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Tommi

God Morning Jess, nice post.. I am on my way to Sears this am for some more Craftsman Love. My girl loves tools, but willingly and lovingly lets me do the fun stuff, cuz my she likes that suspender snapping peacock strutting way it makes us feel to do things.(take literally)

Wow..I am away for 24 hours and ...the butch world comes out form the shadows and starts burping..

My Mama woulda decked me had I done either, but that's beside the point. But my uncle's were allowed to have conteststs..anyway.

Haven't read all the posts, and won't ....but, here is what came to my mind when I saw the title on the front page this morning.

Only a Butch would understand, that nod we have for each other as we pass each other on the street, or in a restaurant.

Only a Butch would understand that glance she gives us in the mirror when she sees us smiling as she applies her lipstick.

Only a butch would understand, another butch

LOL... she always tilts her head at me, holds out the lipstick and smirking says ... "want some?"

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Great post Metro. I am not at all interested in perpetuating stereotypes, and you covered the issues very well.

I enjoyed your post as well Mister Bent, although I don't tend to bond with people over masculinity per se. As an example straight males are masculine too, and I find that I have very little in common with most of them. Masculinity may be a bonding element for some. For me, not so much. I have found that in other organizations and communities where it was supposed to be butch space but ends up being "masculine" space and butches- and in particular female and woman identified butches- tend to get erased and many false assumptions made. I do like bonding with a wide range of people and gender identities- but not at the expense of my gender identity when it is suppposed to be a place for my kind- just something to keep in mind for all.

Right. I probably could have worded that a little better, and I appreciate your post all around.

By bonding element I meant something more in the manner of what I said toward the end of my post, that "masculinity" doesn't belong solely to one group of masculine people and, further, that there is no "hierarchy" of masculinity with which to segregate (I hate that shit).

I, too, have seen incidents where female and woman identified butches have been "erased" or treated as "less than," which I find absurd and harmful. I no more want someone policing my identity, my "butchness" than I want to do so to another. And it does go both ways, which you've no doubt seen, wherein the male identity is criticized as not being what butch is, or not belonging in queer space. You've been around, you know the drill. Regardless, I personally try to honor, and am thankful for the long history of butch. I may be male identified, but butch is meaningful to me, and most evocative (to me), of who I am.

"Being butch" isn't something with which I automatically bond with others either, but the experiences that come of being butch - maybe. Real bonding comes from more than simply sharing a common thread.

[Darth Denkay]

This is so true Tommi - such a great gesture.

Originally Posted by Tommi

Only a Butch would understand, that nod we have for each other as we pass each other on the street, or in a restaurant.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by WicketWWarrick

This is so true Tommi - such a great gesture.

that probably is a butch + butch thing--i'm less likely to nod and much more apt to say: HI SAILOR!

(well, in my single days--a girl's gotta eat!)

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by apretty

that probably is a butch + butch thing--i'm less likely to nod and much more apt to say: HI SAILOR!

(well, in my single days--a girl's gotta eat!)

hmmmm, so maybe you really weren't really a virgin when we met

[Tommi]

Originally Posted by WicketWWarrick

This is so true Tommi - such a great gesture.

Nodding to the BG WicketWWarrick

and to Metro, who likes what he sees..


So, Butch's let's see in ten words or less.

1. What age were you when you first said "I'm butch" ?

2. To whom, yourself included?

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Tommi

Nodding to the BG WicketWWarrick

and to Metro, who likes what he sees..


So, Butch's let's see in ten words or less.

1. What age were you when you first said "I'm butch" ?

2. To whom, yourself included?

I think it's a difficult question because the first time it was verbally acknowledged someone had said it to/about me first, that I was butch, and I don't think I've ever really said it to anyone in a informative type of context.

So I guess I acknowledged it, said it (the word) about myself internally after it being said to me at as a teenager (like 19 I think)...

Ok I think that's right around 10 words...

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Tommi

Nodding to the BG WicketWWarrick

and to Metro, who likes what he sees..


So, Butch's let's see in ten words or less.

1. What age were you when you first said "I'm butch" ?

2. To whom, yourself included?

Like Metro, it was said "about " me first.. in the second grade, by my babysitter's niece... "here comes my little butch" .. I went home and asked momma what it meant. She said it meant that babysitters niece was mean.
I don't think I truly embraced the term until I was around 35 and began seeking out folks who were also embracing it.

Sorry... that wasn't ten words or less... my girl says I practice "butch math" which means more bigger better harder faster.. LOL!

[Darth Denkay]

Knew I was butch (adjective) since pretty much forever.
Knew I was a butch (noun) when I first learned about the B-F community sometime in the late 90s.

Originally Posted by Tommi

So, Butch's let's see in ten words or less.

1. What age were you when you first said "I'm butch" ?

2. To whom, yourself included?[/B][/COLOR]

[Gryph]

Originally Posted by Tommi

Nodding to the BG WicketWWarrick

and to Metro, who likes what he sees..


So, Butch's let's see in ten words or less.

1. What age were you when you first said "I'm butch" ?

2. To whom, yourself included?

I was called a butch in junior high school, I didn't acknowledge it in myself until I was in my early 30's. After I had left an abusive marriage(yes to a bio-male) of 11years.
I still wasn't fully comfortable with being quite as male ID as I am even after my Two-Spirit vision, as I have been since my girl came into my life. She is the one who has brought out the male that I was hiding for so many years.

[Tommi]

Originally Posted by Tommi

Nodding to the BG WicketWWarrick

and to Metro, who likes what he sees..


So, Butch's let's see in ten words or less.

1. What age were you when you first said "I'm butch" ?

2. To whom, yourself included?

Originally Posted by Gryph

I was called a butch in junior high school, I didn't acknowledge it in myself until I was in my early 30's. After I had left an abusive marriage(yes to a bio-male) of 11years.
I still wasn't fully comfortable with being quite as male ID as I am even after my Two-Spirit vision, as I have been since my girl came into my life. She is the one who has brought out the male that I was hiding for so many years.

Yes, Gryph girl's will do that to you.

When I was in grade school , my dad would tease me and tell my friends I was queer... One day my uncle said..."Tommi is butch, get used to it". So, at 13 I told my 14 year old girlfriend I was Butch. She smiled and said, oh, good your not queer...and , it has been fun ever since..

[Jett]

I think as butches... we all understand is what it's like to be stereotyped. We all run into people who EXPECT us to do, understand, know A B and C just because we are butch... and although I can rebuild an engine, build a cabin from the ground up and have ridden motorcycles since I was 7 yrs. old etc etc etc... I don't watch football religiously, drink Grain Belt or burp publicly etc and I don't care for stereotypes.

Respectfully, the thing with this, the problem is with the stereotyping of butches (burping etc) and for me the (intentional or not) characterization of ID's (asking male ID'd butches specifically, what it like to be emasculated as if the female ID'd couldn't know how it feels to have a person attempt that) and in even as subtly as in Ms Cyn's post with "If you are sad about the first thread being started by butches being MORE of the MASCULINE/male ID flavor"

Masculine slash male ID? Masculinity or butchness is not measured by how we individually choose to verbally ID ourselves, not to mention masculinity has many different faces (many of which are not male) and interpretations. I think it's extremely important in bridging the gaps between differently ID butches to understand this and not just haphazardly create these points of contention.

Lastly, sure some butches (of all ID's) are loud public burpers (again I am not), so are some grade school kids and nursing home residents... just what's the point of putting it in the opening post of a generalized butch thread (stereotype much?)

We do have so much in common experience as butches to (Bathroom story's anyone? Sir'd? Ma'am'd? Smamed?) I think if we just thought deeper and didn't immediately separate and stereotype things would go more smoothly.

Metro

P.S good post Jess, Tommi

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I think as butches... we all understand is what it's like to be stereotyped. We all run into people who EXPECT us to do, understand, know A B and C just because we are butch... and although I can rebuild an engine, build a cabin from the ground up and have ridden motorcycles since I was 7 yrs. old etc etc etc... I don't watch football religiously, drink Grain Belt or burp publicly etc and I don't care for stereotypes.

Respectfully, the thing with this, the problem is with the stereotyping of butches (burping etc) and for me the (intentional or not) characterization of ID's (asking male ID'd butches specifically, what it like to be emasculated as if the female ID'd couldn't know how it feels to have a person attempt that) and in even as subtly as in Ms Cyn's post with "If you are sad about the first thread being started by butches being MORE of the MASCULINE/male ID flavor"

Masculine slash male ID? Masculinity or butchness is not measured by how we individually choose to verbally ID ourselves, I think it's extremely important in bridging the gaps between differently ID butches to understand this and not just haphazardly create these points of contention.

Lastly, sure some butches (male and female ID) are loud public burpers (again I am not), so are some grade school kids and nursing home residents... just what's the point of putting it in the opening post of a generalized butch thread (stereotype much?)

We do have so much in common experience as butches to (Bathroom story's anyone? Sir'd? Ma'am'd? Smamed?) I think if we just thought deeper and didn't immediately separate and stereotype things would go more smoothly.

Metro

Great post Metro, and this is really where I am with the whole issue, as well. The stereotypes are out there, I think they're fairly well documented and don't need reiteration here. I admire how you respectfully addressed that - because being dismissive isn't a one way street and is a poor way to start off a thread that's supposed to be for us.

I am in complete agreement with, "Masculinity or butchness is not measured by how we individually choose to verbally ID ourselves, I think it's extremely important in bridging the gaps between differently ID butches to understand this and not just haphazardly create these points of contention."

In my opinion, one (and only one) of the essential elements of butch is masculinity - female masculinity, masculine women, male identified trans-masculine - however we choose to further define it. Masculinity does not belong solely to cis-gendered men, transmen, stone butches - it belongs to all of us. THAT, in my mind, is our bonding element.

When I saw the title of this thread, I didn't think about passing gas, tools, football or any of those things - because none of these is unique to the butch experience. Plenty of femmes or other - ID'ed folks are adept with their hands, love beer and can change their oil (though I admit I wish I could rebuild an engine). What I hope to see here are those stories of the common formative experiences and the day to day trials.

[BullDog]

Great post Metro. I am not at all interested in perpetuating stereotypes, and you covered the issues very well.

I enjoyed your post as well Mister Bent, although I don't tend to bond with people over masculinity per se. As an example straight males are masculine too, and I find that I have very little in common with most of them. Masculinity may be a bonding element for some. For me, not so much. I have found that in other organizations and communities where it was supposed to be butch space but ends up being "masculine" space and butches- and in particular female and woman identified butches- tend to get erased and many false assumptions made. I do like bonding with a wide range of people and gender identities- but not at the expense of my gender identity when it is suppposed to be a place for my kind- just something to keep in mind for all.

[Random]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Respectfully, the thing with this, the problem is with the stereotyping of butches (burping etc) and for me the (intentional or not) characterization of ID's (asking male ID'd butches specifically, what it like to be emasculated as if the female ID'd couldn't know how it feels to have a person attempt that) and in even as subtly as in Ms Cyn's post with "If you are sad about the first thread being started by butches being MORE of the MASCULINE/male ID flavor"

Masculine slash male ID? Masculinity or butchness is not measured by how we individually choose to verbally ID ourselves, not to mention masculinity has many different faces (many of which are not male) and interpretations. I think it's extremely important in bridging the gaps between differently ID butches to understand this and not just haphazardly create these points of contention.

Metropolis,

I'm sorry..

Sometime, what is in my head doesn't come out right... I was using the / as a *and*

Masculine/male = Those that have/feel masculine energy/id, but do not identify with male and those who have masculine energy and also feel male Identity..

[Jet]

I wish I could post what another butch would understand.
But I can't, I'm coming out of a 17-year storm and life is precarious to say the least.
Good luck to everyone here. I hope you guys have peace and happiness.

[BullDog]

Thanks for your post Jet. I do sincerely wish the best for you as well. I am pondering your post and thinking that understanding is not always a given among butches, but a process that sometimes may take some time- and that's ok.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Ol' Jet

I wish I could post what another butch would understand.
But I can't, I'm coming out of a 17-year storm and life is precarious to say the least.
Good luck to everyone here. I hope you guys have peace and happiness.

It's understandable, being that fresh... we'll be here when you feel like it... I'm sure there's more than a few of us who've been through similar.

In the mean time hope you stick around and just enjoy the discussions, comradery and general what-not.

Peace to you too

Metro

(Ms Cyn... no apoligies needed, and thx for your clarification)

[Dean Thoreau]

jess, can I give your phone number to the 6 diva's? you can be there super hero...at the fixing plunging stuff you look better in the blue tights!.