A straight girl enters the queer world...

[DeviantDaddy]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Just some questions (they don't require an answer) and thoughts that came to mind......

Why are you giving her advice? I rarely ever give anyone advice. I can tell them what I feel or think or question about a situation, how I would act in that situation, but that is the extent of it. I rarely ever say 'I think you should ______' (I am probably nitpicking the meaning of advice)

.....

edited to add cuz I forgot it:
I"m wondering why he is in a relationship. It sounds like he has a lot of work to do himself....it is hard to do that in a new relationship

Hi Toughy,
When we speak to her in regards to the matters she brings us, it is rarely ever in a manner of... 'I think you should do this' and so forth. The only exception to that has been our suggestion to join discussion boards (such as this one) and read up on a lot of the information that is available to the public. And as far as the person she is seeing, I have considered the very same thing. In speaking to him there are plenty of red flags that I have picked up on but am not getting in the middle of. Everything we speak of we simply answer questions she directly asks us and other times we're just there to listen.

I am certain that the very reason she turns to us is given the slight similarities in our circumstances. My kitten was very much a heterosexual woman who only dated cis-gender males until she met me. So she feel s as though we would be the best people to turn to in regards to her questions and such.

[Soft*Silver]

If I had someone who was calling me and crying to me hours at night, I would wonder why they are needing me so much and if I am the one to answer their needs at all. And I would then examine why I am buying into this neediness. What purpose is it serving me??

Frankly, by the way its being described, I think its all overboard, both in the primary relationship, and in the way its being handled outside of the relationship

I have friends...with whom I have deeply rich, long term, even profound friendships. When my friends go thru bad times, I am there for them but not when I shouldnt be. Sometimes being a sounding board or a shoulder to cry on is actually detrimental. To both the crier and to the "shoulder". Sometimes what they need isnt me...

to personalize it....If my sub had so much of a problem with me and was sobbing about how bad the relationship is over and over again, to someone else, 1) I would want to know why he was still in a relationship with me, since no one makes you a victim unless you put yourself in those positions (I am not talking about abuse here. Abuse is a different matter and thats all about hostage taking)

2) If my sub had no clue about our relationship dynamics and my "label" as a Being, why isnt he investigating, researching, getting involved, etc. so that he can know what loving and respecting me entails..not to mention doing so for himself!

3) If he "loves" me but doesnt know me, then I am gonna really suspect that there isnt love there but neediness. This is a pet peeve of mine..people who proclaim love LONG before it is a true factor. When people do this, it means there is a hole inside them that they want someone else to fill. This, is the ugly D word. Dependency. If I let our relationship continue when there isnt real love established, its not just his fault, its mine too, and so then its on both of our parts and thats called CO-dependency.

one more thing

Imma gonna end by saying this: those who try to fix other people's relationships, don't. In fact, often they either make it last longer than it should, or sometimes they make it break up sooner than it should, if at all! I am not suggesting we shouldnt be there for friends who need us...but needing us as friends and being needy as a friend, are two separate things...one is about love, the other about dependency.

[TickledPink]

When it comes down to it, the TWO of them will have to figure it out. There is no book, friend, forum, etc that can do that for either of them.

Perhaps the journey will be a great growing experience for each!

Well-wishes!

[stepfordfemme]

I really want to answer this post as its been one of few that has struck a cord with me. My own opinion follows and I hope this discussion continues.

To answer the question:
1. How important is the full understanding of trans-gender mentality and needs to be a complete partner to someone who is trans?

In my experience in dating and getting to know transmen, I would say that this is dependent on where the guy is in his transition. If they are taking their relationship through the whole process, then it would be of benefit to brush up on information. It just makes it easier.

From my transguy-loving femme perspective, I don't think your friend is any less straight, nor should is it her duty to be informed--as long as she understands she is dating a man. He views himself as such from what I gather. And he understands he is dating a straight girl. There will be bumps and hiccups and messiness. But I agree with some of the postings, why do we all need to know everything if our intentions and hearts are in the right place? I don't believe one can never understand another's experience, just try to hear and listen to as much as possible. Communication is key in these relationships.

I'm a believer that our gender identity can be fluid (yes I'm going there). I define as queer, but I view my relationships with transmen as completely heterosexual. When I'm blessed to have a transman in my life, I'm a happy straight girl. When I'm dating a fine butch, I'm a happy queer girl. But there are women like myself, who don't exactly fit a label either---just like many others in the community!

Maybe your friend is just trying to be with a person she cares about rather than get caught up in gender mentality. Is that complicated? Absolutely. I applaud you for being there for them. Just take care of yourselves as well.

I've read some posts that say identity is fixed, but I believe that is a choice some people choose to make. IMO Labels just allow us to communicate preferences and there are some people that don't have a lot of attachments to the words and analysis.

Thanks for reading and posting on this thread. Interesting!

[Gemme]

My gut reaction, from the little bit that has been discussed here, is to take a biiiig step back.

Drawing from my personal experience, it sounds as if your friend...who very well may be the sweetest woman on Earth...is an energy vampire. If she's boohooing on your shoulders at all hours and 'woe is me'ing without taking some personal responsibility for her own relationship, then I feel badly for all parties involved.

It's not going to end well.

Both of them need to educate themselves and to take the time and make the effort to educate one another about what they've learned, not only about the dynamics of their relationship but of their own personal goals/thoughts/dreams/wishes/etc for themselves as individuals and as partners in a working relationship.

The thing with the pronouns. Oh, my. That rubs my nerves RAW. When folks would call Ebon her or she, I swear, I wore my teeth down even further than my nightly grinding does. It's not only blatantly disrepectful and ignorant but it's confusing to those who are watching her to see how to approach him in their relationship.

And if he doesn't know where he's coming from or at least in what direction he wants to go, then he's dragging her along blindly and it may be in a direction that is not good for either of them.

Love schmove. She's getting her toes curled and is feeling the newlywed buzz from it. If she truly loved him, she'd make the effort to address him as he prefers and to support him. If he was truly in love with her, then he'd make clear boundaries and enforce them with her and others.

This is their relationship and their lives. They need to start living them on their own. I'd steer them both in the direction of good, solid research material and maybe shoot them a couple emails with therapists (Trans, couples, etc) and then take a biiig step back and lay my own boundaries down with them. I like you and I hope this works out, but I will not let you drain me. Live your own life and make your own decisions and, for the love of Pete (not Chancie's Pete), grow the Hell up. Both of them.

Arwen said that the Mercury Retrograde would make it more difficult to maintain my filters.

She might be right.

[EnderD_503]

A few people have brought up "research." I tend to agree with that perspective, only because, at least from the way I learn, reading about something as a whole tends to clarify it and give it context. That doesn't mean that you can read about one trans experience and see it as an all encompassing trans experience...you certainly can't, but it can give you greater context.

I notice that some people coming from a more strictly ingrained straight and cis background really have trouble. All their lives they think in binaries; female and male, gay and straight, masculine and feminine etc. Then suddenly they somehow come into contact with someone who is trans or someone who is queer. Maybe they fall in love or maybe they're just friends. Then it seems like everything they were ever taught about sex, gender and sexuality is being upended. It would make sense (though it still certainly sucks) that such a person would have issues with pronouns, if they still have an understanding of sex as a part of a binary, or if they still believe that a sex assigned at birth = "real sex"; certain genitals = certain sexes and all the usual incorrect assumptions.

That's why I think that maybe reading a book or two on transguys/trans identities might be useful to put things into context for her, and bring her understanding of sex/gender outside the typical binary. At least coming from the perspective of someone who learns better with a combination of lived community experience and reading about others' identities and experiences. Personally I try to do the same with femmes as well as other queer women and/or lesbian-identified women. Hell, I enjoy doing so for any identity within the queer community because its my community. These people are important to me community-wise, so I want to get as much as I can about varying experiences, and if hearing about one experience doesn't allow it to sink in for me, then sometimes hearing about various experiences in a written context helps bring a perspective more into focus.

So maybe that could actually help your friend as well.

Also, a bit off-topic, but it's been briefly discussed in this thread the experiences of queer and/or lesbian women in relationships with transguys and the struggles they might go through. That's something that interests me, because often (at least, I've found) the struggle is maintaining a queer and/or lesbian identity while dating a transguy. The assumption is, then, that the transguy may very well identify as straight and what, then, of the queer and/or lesbian identity of a partner and her identity? I feel like for me, personally, that is a struggle I share to some extent even as a transguy/male-identified butch. How do you remain a transguy who identifies as queer who is into queer women, who doesn't identify as bi or pan, and still remain visibly queer and trans? Especially in a psychiatric-influenced trans community that still thinks that being a transguy who is into women while identifying as queer somehow is a denial of maleness or an admittance of femaleness. Maintaining visibility (and in the context of relationships) is definitely something that has concerned me and other transguys I know. I think that some transguys and their partners who are queer women and/or lesbian women may share more in some of these struggles than is often talked about...maybe people should just talk more. I dunno.

[stepfordfemme]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Also, a bit off-topic, but it's been briefly discussed in this thread the experiences of queer and/or lesbian women in relationships with transguys and the struggles they might go through. That's something that interests me, because often (at least, I've found) the struggle is maintaining a queer and/or lesbian identity while dating a transguy. The assumption is, then, that the transguy may very well identify as straight and what, then, of the queer and/or lesbian identity of a partner and her identity? I feel like for me, personally, that is a struggle I share to some extent even as a transguy/male-identified butch. How do you remain a transguy who identifies as queer who is into queer women, who doesn't identify as bi or pan, and still remain visibly queer and trans? Especially in a psychiatric-influenced trans community that still thinks that being a transguy who is into women while identifying as queer somehow is a denial of maleness or an admittance of femaleness. Maintaining visibility (and in the context of relationships) is definitely something that has concerned me and other transguys I know. I think that some transguys and their partners who are queer women and/or lesbian women may share more in some of these struggles than is often talked about...maybe people should just talk more. I dunno.

I'm curious as to why visibility is a concern?
Would love to hear more on this.

From my POV, there is no shame in stealth. If I look like part of any other hetero couple, why would I feel the need to be any other way? Why is there a need to "fly our stripes" so to speak? If a person so chooses to represent their community its their choice. But with so much fragmentation, not everyone feels that the queer community represents them.

I remember once asking my ex-partner, well didnt you do this while you were coming out and he said to me "I never came out like you, I just became who I am now". So I guess my question is.....what if you're not attached to an identity?

[Okiebug61]

What was the initial attraction?

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm still confused why the OP's friend is being presumed to be queer??

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I guess I'm not clear on what it is about entering into this relationship that automatically "queers" your straight friend? Maybe the relationship "straights" her new boyfriend.

Afterall, gender and sexuality are not the same thing. An FTM may be queer, but he is not queer necessarily.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Im confused


I thought this woman was straight?

Her dating this transman doesn't "automatically" queer her up, it's unfair at this point to say ALLL transguys are expecting this..

It's a big generalization.

Just because this particular individual is an ass clown it doesn't mean transmen here are too, each label has its ass hatery?

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I'm still confused why the OP's friend is being presumed to be queer??

Yes this...and I think it was Bete who said it up there somewhere as well.

For me, how I ID has to do with who I am...not who I date or sleep with or am partnered with.

I have lots of other opinions about other things touched on in this conversation....but I think that is a key point.

As far as the rest goes....it appears (from what little information we have) that the "straight girl" in question is possibly wearing a "Drama" nametag. Personally, I'd offer some resources and back away slowly. My only experience with someone who called me at all hours of the night in turmoil and angst turned out to be the biggest liar I've ever met, and an absolute black hole of energy and emotion.

I totally get a friend asking a friend for advice and feedback...especially if they see a common thread in that friend's situation or life. But that's different from extensive, dramatic, all-hours phone calls.

As far as the measure of whether femmes are working harder to understand trans partners or vice versa....I have no clue. I think different people learn in different ways...and just because it isn't posted on the internet doesn't mean the learning isn't happening or the effort to understand isn't being made.