Butches and Body Image - Let's Talk About It

[Turtle]

For me, it is quite present the depth to which people are hurt by being put out of community and/or told they are not a "proper ______" - fill in the blank.

I believe our lives are for us to figure out who we are and that we do that in relationship with other beings. In this society (of course this is a generalization), there is more rejection, judgement, and damage than in some other societies where people are kinder and view young people as spiritual beings to be nurtured into healthy adulthood.

In my life, I try to be present and really see people and value who they are because we are all in different places in the process of learning how to be better, more full and conscious beings and I believe we should be helping, not hurting, each other as best we can.

I believe identity formation, be it butch or femme or anything else, is central to who we are as human beings.

...even if we end up letting go of said identity later on...it's all part of the process of becoming a more full human being capable of loving ourselves and others.

When I had someone tell me at the age of 14 when I was in a wedding in a lovely dress - that I looked so grown up - I needed to figure out why that compliment bothered me. I decided that what bothered me was that I was the same person that Saturday as I was the Sunday before when they saw me and that seeing me in a dress had nothing to do with who I really was at the time. They were not really seeing or knowing me.

And without these types of incidents and without spending the time thinking about them I would not come to know who I am and what I think about things...and for that I am thankful.

[Toughy]

This is a thread about butch body image in the butch zone. There are plenty of threads in the femme zone about femme body issues. I promise if a couple of three butches posted about our body image in a femme thread (even if asked by a femme) all holy hell would break loose.

Please take your femme stuff to the femme threads. Thank you

[Syr]

Originally Posted by Toughy

This is a thread about butch body image in the butch zone. There are plenty of threads in the femme zone about femme body issues. I promise if a couple of three butches posted about our body image in a femme thread (even if asked by a femme) all holy hell would break loose.

Please take your femme stuff to the femme threads. Thank you

Perhaps you should read back where the 'femmes' were asked for their opinion.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Syr

Perhaps you should read back where the 'femmes' were asked for their opinion.

Is this necessary? Why would you assume I did not read the post by dykeumentary? Cheryl also addressed it.

I actually addressed that in my post only it was the reverse.....and I will repeat it: Even if asked by a femme.............ALL HELL would break loose if a butch posted about body image in a femme thread.

Could we please continue talking about butch body issues and not get side-tracked. Thank you.

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I have always believed my comfort with my body came as a result of the strong women in my life and the fact masculine women (straight and lesbian) were not uncommon in the farm and ranch communities I was raised in. I had masculine women and feminine women to serve as role models for the different ways a woman can walk in this world. It certainly was a blessing.

My maternal grandmother was the first to address my masculinity and sexual orientation when I was about 11-12yrs old. Grandmother was a dancing fool and spent many a saturday night at the shit kicker bar dancing with cowboys. She told me a story about this woman who went dancing with her crowd of friends. It seems this woman wore a suit and tie and always only danced (and lead) with other women. She said it was just fine and that this woman was a great dancer.

That is just one story.....out of many others.

My mother is the one who taught me to open doors, hold coats, and do all that good manners, how to treat a lady stuff. She taught me by example and how she insisted my Dad treat her. I remember her sitting in the car one day waiting for my Dad to come back outside and open her car door. He forgot to do that.....I tried to open her door and she barked at me and said NO that is your father's job. I went in the house and told Daddy he best go open her car door.....He kinda gasped and ran out the door and opened her car door. My mother was a role model.

[Turtle]

Things happen in our lives and we think, "I'll never do THAT again" or "I sure want to do that better." We learn from others - good and bad.

I seek to heal, to leave the world a better place, to bridge communities, to apologize when I screw up, to love wherever I can, to welcome into community - I always have an empty chair in the circle to be welcoming of all comers...

I am responsible for the way I behave and I do not choose to tell people to leave because I know I would be told to leave "their" place. How we learn from each other's identity place is relevant.

Once upon a time, I was in a bar playing a video game with an older man. I was winning. He didn't take it very well. I lost on purpose, then I felt shitty about it and swore to my self that I would never have my femaleness defer to a maleness like that again. This is some of how I have learned to be me.

And no, I don't think someone should let their boat flood and sink to protect some dipshit's butch "pride," just like I'm not not ever gonna lose on purpose for somebody else's fragile ego again.

Do I want to talk about zebras in a car thread - no. But identity formation, figuring out who we are and how we move in the world is complicated with a lot of overlapping areas...and some people might even do some "switching" in the navigating of who and how they want to be when.

And I'm up for the discussion of that and all it entails.

[Okiebug61]

Has anyone read any of the works by Esther Newton. I find her to be wonderfully honest and intellectually stimulating. She has written articles about being butch and the body image issues. She is not afraid to put controversial things in writing so you have to have a very open mind into her definitions.

http://www.lsa.umich.edu/women/faculty/facbio.asp?ID=43

[Scuba]

Originally Posted by Okiebug61

Has anyone read any of the works by Esther Newton. I find her to be wonderfully honest and intellectually stimulating. She has written articles about being butch and the body image issues. She is not afraid to put controversial things in writing so you have to have a very open mind into her definitions.

http://www.lsa.umich.edu/women/faculty/facbio.asp?ID=43

No but thanks for the information. I'll be sure to check it out.

[ScandalAndy]

Originally Posted by Okiebug61

Has anyone read any of the works by Esther Newton. I find her to be wonderfully honest and intellectually stimulating. She has written articles about being butch and the body image issues. She is not afraid to put controversial things in writing so you have to have a very open mind into her definitions.

http://www.lsa.umich.edu/women/faculty/facbio.asp?ID=43

She was my intro to gay & lesbian studies and Gay & Lesbian studies Jr/Sr seminar professor. She wears her butch identity with pride every day and is DEFINITELY not afraid to speak out against things she does not agree with and find oppressive. She and I use different definitions of "butch", and we butted heads from time to time (I was butch presenting when I took her lectures), but her knowledge and conviction is astounding. She presented some interesting thoughts on being butch and aging, too.

[Okiebug61]

Originally Posted by Turtle

For me, it is quite present the depth to which people are hurt by being put out of community and/or told they are not a "proper ______" - fill in the blank.

Yes unfortunately humans can be downright mean. I think there are times when we think this community or others we have belonged to would be a safe haven. Not so true!

Clicks are everywhere including here. If you don't fit the click you don't fit. There are some who judge everyone by looks and looks only.

I find it a shame that anyone feels bad about who they are, how they id and how they think they have to look to fit in.

All of us no matter our ID come in all shapes and sizes and that is what makes us all so damn cool!

[Scuba]

Originally Posted by Okiebug61

Yes unfortunately humans can be downright mean. I think there are times when we think this community or others we have belonged to would be a safe haven. Not so true!

Clicks are everywhere including here. If you don't fit the click you don't fit. There are some who judge everyone by looks and looks only.

I find it a shame that anyone feels bad about who they are, how they id and how they think they have to look to fit in.

All of us no matter our ID come in all shapes and sizes and that is what makes us all so damn cool!

Agree. There is no escaping the herd mentality, not here, not in the real world of our real lives. The media feeds this ugly beast by simply indicating that we are "less than perfect" and that is NOT acceptable....

...IMHO