Abuse in butch-femme relationships

[dancer611]

I thank you all for your advice. It is hard to convey the depth of something like this on a forum, obviously. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. Of course it's hard to hear that people think you're fucked up, or that you want sympathy, or that it's partly your "fault" for going back to an abuser. (On a side note, my original post had nothing to do with her being butch. Her large size did, because it was part of how she intimidated and controlled me. But size doesn't make you butch and I don't think it's any more okay for femmes to hit butches than the other way around). So many people on this thread said they experienced abuse and kept going back...are they all "fucked up" as well, or exaggerating what happened to them, or is it their "fault" that the abuse continued? This happens to thousands of people everywhere, and the tendency is to blame the victim or to question if they are lying. I knew all this, and yet I allowed myself to be dragged into this as she slowly broke down my self-esteem, telling me no one else would ever love me and isolating me from my family and friends until I was afraid and alone. I became reliant on her as this continued.

As for the question about "what would her side of the story be," she has finally admitted that she is abusive (with the help of her therapist) and possibly bipolar, and (very) recently admitted to me that she had been in jail previously for domestic violence, against a girlfriend and a police officer, and has had to attend mandatory anger management twice, and that other girlfriends had accused her of physical abuse as well. These girls were dragged into it as well, sometimes for years. So no, she would not disagree with what I said. I just don't know how I could have been so stupid.

For those of you who have not been abused, the guilt of a victim is so strong--I should have acted different, I should have made a better sandwich for her, I shouldn't have asked her to stop drinking, I shouldn't have cried and she wouldn't have done anything--that it becomes a constant cycle of beating yourself up. So to be questioned about if I was lying about whether she was drunk, or saying I was in a mutually abusive relationship, or being told that I was "painting" myself as a victim, when really my question was about why I could still feel things for this person who repeatedly abused alcohol and abused me and terrified me to the point that I did try to fight back (I honestly did not know if she was going to kill me) and if anyone had been through something similar, made me very upset, even though it's just a forum and no one here knows me. So I'm sorry if I seemed like a grouch, but I just felt misunderstood and the whole thing has very much shaken me up.

[MrSunshine]

why I could still feel things for this person who repeatedly abused alcohol and abused me


that's the way of the human heart

[Gráinne]

Of course you can still love someone who beats the shit out of you. That's the dynamic that keeps women in these relationships (well, that's simplistic, but it's part of it). I've been there.

You need to love yourself more than you love this abusive person. And you are already ahead of the game in that you don't live together and I assume you are self-supporting. Millions of women are not. You have youth and no dependents (I'm also assuming). (I'm not discounting that men are abused also, and vastly underreported, but just looking at women for the moment).

Back when I was being slapped around and emotionally abused (which began much earlier than the physical), I searched for anything to make it stop-I literally walked on eggshells, careful not to set my partner off. I was sick, and I'll go as far as say I was in a form of insanity. I learned much later that I couldn't control the abuse or stop it, as the "rules" kept changing in our mutual dance of death.

I loved my partner, and when the times were good, they were great! That kept me there way too long. I won't go into the details, but I wound up in a battered women's shelter full of women who spoke versions of your post, and it was a long time before I totally extricated myself from that relationship. Then I had to take years of therapy and a lot of healing to address why and how I got into that situation, and how to have anything close to a healthy relationship. That work continues today, though I am 1000% better off now than then. I left with little, but Lord, things are better today even in the grimmest days.

It doesn't matter if she accosts you in your apartment or on the Moon. Unless you do this work on yourself, and get free (read Ginny McCarthy's book Getting Free, and do anything and everything in it), this person or someone like her will surely kill you. Don't let yourself be a victim or become a statistic.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by dancer611

For those of you who have not been abused, the guilt of a victim is so strong--I should have acted different, I should have made a better sandwich for her, I shouldn't have asked her to stop drinking, I shouldn't have cried and she wouldn't have done anything--that it becomes a constant cycle of beating yourself up. So to be questioned about if I was lying about whether she was drunk, or saying I was in a mutually abusive relationship, or being told that I was "painting" myself as a victim, when really my question was about why I could still feel things for this person who repeatedly abused alcohol and abused me and terrified me to the point that I did try to fight back (I honestly did not know if she was going to kill me) and if anyone had been through something similar, made me very upset, even though it's just a forum and no one here knows me. So I'm sorry if I seemed like a grouch, but I just felt misunderstood and the whole thing has very much shaken me up.

this isn't what you asked. you asked "what should i do?"

the answer to that is "you should get counseling and maintain your boundaries."

the answer to the question in your later post is, as evidenced by everyone's posts here, YES, many of us have been through the same thing and we know what it feels like.

and yes, it's possible to still feel something. i still feel love for people who have abused me. i have even stayed in a relationship with someone when they committed to getting help and working on their destructive patterns (and when the abuse was an isolated incident), and the outcome was positive. that's rare though. 99% of the time, the absolute best thing you can do for yourself is GET OUT. feel the feelings and whatever - they're going to come up. find a safe place to feel them. but get out and maintain boundaries until both of you have done some work. that is the only way to deal with the feelings of guilt and shame and put them into perspective.

[JustJo]

Hi Dancer

I understand completely feeling like you love that person and want to give them another chance. In fact, I think abusers count on that in their targets...and pick people who will keep giving them second, third, and fourth chances.

I am not even going to pretend any deep knowledge of matters psychological....but I was in counseling at one point....and my therapist shared this list with me. Please read it with your abusive partner in mind....and look at what it says about how they view those in their lives. I know this is about sociopaths and not abusers per se....but I'm seeing patterns and wonder if you will too.

Having said that...having the information isn't always enough. Some of us, myself included, are slow learners.

Please don't take what you're reading in this thread as an attack. It isn't. And please, for your own health and well-being, find a good counselor who can help you....you deserve it.

Here's the list:

Profile of the Sociopath

Glibness and Superficial Charm

Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

Incapacity for Love

Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Related Qualities:

Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

(The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare.)

[Breathless]

Okay in fear of coming across as anything less than completely sincere, and empathetic.. the way I understood the beginning of this thread was that, you were having a problem/issue/concern/need to vent about a current situation that you were having, and looking for advice (since that is what happens when you say it out loud to a world full of people) Yet there is another thread that was started by you as well, that makes it sound ? Ancient history? Or no longer a current concern?

Please dont bite my head off, I was just posting on a different thread and the topic was much different attitude, and when i noticed that the threads were started within a day of each other by the same original poster, made me wonder who is on the other side of the screen.

Not that I or anyone else is owed any kind of explanation, just feeling a little confused.

[deedarino]

Domestic violence screws with your head, terribly. It takes your self esteem to the ground and stomps it out. If you stay long enough, you don't know what is up or down, right or wrong, love or hate.

Once a victim, you need time. You need help, professional help. It sounds like you are still spinning, looking for answers to a question there are no answers for. You have to let your ex go, you can do nothing for her/him now. YOU CANNOT FIX THEM. You have to fix yourself.

Go learn to breathe, to stop thinking it over and over, learn to love yourself. Learn the warning signs and the ways to step around when you see it coming. Become strong enough to walk away from love if you need to.

The truth is, unless you do, you are at risk of it happening again.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by deedarino

Domestic violence screws with your head, terribly. It takes your self esteem to the ground and stomps it out. If you stay long enough, you don't know what is up or down, right or wrong, love or hate.

Once a victim, you need time. You need help, professional help. It sounds like you are still spinning, looking for answers to a question there are no answers for. You have to let your ex go, you can do nothing for her/him now. YOU CANNOT FIX THEM. You have to fix yourself.

Go learn to breathe, to stop thinking it over and over, learn to love yourself. Learn the warning signs and the ways to step around when you see it coming. Become strong enough to walk away from love if you need to.

The truth is, unless you do, you are at risk of it happening again.

Very good point deedarino.

Someone taught me this a long time ago and when you "get it" it does help and make things much easier in life....

Remember your love is yours. YOU choose who to give it too. You can feel love for many people but to give it to someone is a choice. No one can take it. No one can claim ownership of your heart. YOU control that.

Give it to those who deserve it. Whether it be relationship or friendship or family. Take that control back.

Hugs to you in this difficult time.

[Dude]

One more story about an ex coworker of mine and then I'll shut up.
Gorgeous woman, immepecible dresser,this woman has a million things going for her. Great personality ,sweet ,caring mother and grandmother.
The kind of woman who other women envy for her looks ,body and put together stuff.
She's been with a very handsome,very charming but mentally abusive ass for fifteen years. He insults and degrades her daily. She believes him and has zero self esteem. She tried moving in with her daughter 2000 miles away,
two years ago.She came back to him with the excuse she had a lot of stuff here, still in their (his) house.
Shit is getting bad again, she's selling things and plans on moving to her daughters again, this time for good. He wants her to sell her car which is the only thing
she has left AND her only escape. Fifteen years with this man and she is not on the mortgage.
He's like a drug to her that she just cant seem to stop.
This time she's talking more about the abuse and is keeping her escape a secret.
She now suddenly see's that coming back was a choice and a very unhealthy one.
After giving it fifteen years of her life to get better, her denial is fortunately and finally, fading.

Dancer,
I do have to say it seems weird that your looking for butch's while going
through all this emotional, upheaval in your life. You would be using someone to make yourself feel better and if you would'nt want that done to you, then dont do it.
Counseling will help you learn about you ( who you really are) and what makes you happy.

[dancer611]

@Breathless, I looked through the threads I posted and I'm not sure which one you mean because I didn't mention any abuse in any other threads. I mentioned BDSM only in the form of (light) spanking, which I do enjoy, and which we took full advantage of in the beginning of our relationship (and died down once the drinking/these incidents started up, because the trust began to wane) but surely you are not suggesting that consensual play/sexual spanking is abuse?? And also my "attitude" was different because I wanted to talk generally about fun BDSM spankings, which I've always like to give and receive, not to go into sordid details about my failed abusive relationship. But if you were talking about a different thread, then disregard all that.

But to the rest of you, thank you for your continued support. This has messed with my head a lot. I realize what happened to me and it's hard not to blame myself. I am definitely getting counseling to deal with it.

[Novelafemme]

"Remember your love is yours. YOU choose who to give it too. You can feel love for many people but to give it to someone is a choice. No one can take it. No one can claim ownership of your heart. YOU control that.

Give it to those who deserve it. Whether it be relationship or friendship or family. Take that control back."

Belle, this is the best advice I have seen in this thread. Thank you!

And Dancer, please don't beat yourself up for considering going back. You are NOT a failure for mulling over the "what-if's"...many of us have been there, myself included. That being said, cherish yourself first and foremost and please don't allow anyone ever to diminish your self-worth.

[Apocalipstic]

I get starting the different threads, sometimes when my mind is spun out I grasp at straws too. I want to engage my mind in something fun like flirting . Yes therapy is a way better idea, but I get it.

And it is exceedingly difficult, when someone tells you they are sorry, to turn your back when you love someone. They say they don't remember, or you triggered them, or they were drunk.....it won't ever happen again. But bottom line it did happen and it can happen again.

I don't know u Dancer or how you came up, but if you grew up being abused as I was, someone abusive and angry seems familiar...but it is a cycle that needs to be broken for your own mental and physical safety.

Take care of yourself. Do things for you. Stay busy.

[Breathless]

[QUOTE=dancer611;557501]@Breathless, I looked through the threads I posted and I'm not sure which one you mean because I didn't mention any abuse in any other threads. I mentioned BDSM only in the form of (light) spanking, which I do enjoy, and which we took full advantage of in the beginning of our relationship (and died down once the drinking/these incidents started up, because the trust began to wane) but surely you are not suggesting that consensual play/sexual spanking is abuse?? And also my "attitude" was different because I wanted to talk generally about fun BDSM spankings, which I've always like to give and receive, not to go into sordid details about my failed abusive relationship. But if you were talking about a different thread, then disregard all that.

This is what I am referring to..

Your original post in this thread.. note date and time

03-29-2012, 09:11 PM


This is going to be a tough one for me. I thought my last (and first; I'm only 22 and didn't figure any of this out until 21, so I haven't had a lot of time!) girlfriend was the love of my life.

Next thread, note date and time

03-29-2012, 06:00 AM


Insecurities; I worry that women won't/don't like me

I have always, and continue to, attract primarily straight men. Older, younger, whatever. I've been with several women, but it's harder for me to catch their interest when I'm out and about, it seems. Even if I go to a gay bar or LGBT event, butch women may or may not look me over, but don't approach me. I'm not sure if it's because they think I'm straight (is there anything I can wear/do/etc. to show I'm not?), or because I'm just not attractive to them. This has caused me to worry a lot about the future! Any advice/thoughts?

Third thread, again note date and time
03-29-2012, 05:49 AM
Are butches really a dying breed?

I've heard time and time again that butches are "dying out," that there are tons more femmes than butches and that that trend will likely continue. I haven't been out long and don't know much about the overall community. Is this true, or a myth that people in femme-heavy areas like to throw around?

So Dancer, this is what is making me confused. You have been a member for a very short period of time, welcome to the site. But dear dancer, there seems to be inconsistencies. In a 15 hour period you post from only having had one girlfriend ever, and being quite hurt and confused and tramatized with the abuse that has happen, (I am in no way questioning the truth in what has happened to you, as I strongly believe that .. that in its self would be revictimizing ) then in another post you are mentioning having had been with several women and are looking to be back in the dating scene, yet in the original post at the starting of this thread, it sounds as if you just finally got out of that relationship.

I was not going to respond again after my original post about being confused, however you have called me out to explain.