Why lipstick lesbians have to keep coming out of the closet

[LipstickLola]

*Ahem* Lipsticklola here
I can totally relate to the article. In the hetero world, I'm just another middle aged woman, in the community? I'm just another middle aged woman, LOL, unless I'm with my very butch Xg/f. Having come out later in life, but with a fairly good idea of "who" I was, it's still disconcerting to be somewhat discriminated against amongst other lesbians because I've been previously married to a man. So while we all promote diversity, inclusion, and want to wrap our arms around women like ourselves, (regardless of what label we wear) there is still the stigma of being different, even among gay women. Lipstick lesbians may continually have to come out of the closet, and then again there are times it almost feels easier to stay there.

[Ginger]

I've said already somewhere on the site, being femme was always a contextual ID for me—it was my way of "coming out" in my attraction to butch women.

Eventually, though, I ended up with a woman who looks and acts butch in many ways, but doesn't ascribe to that ID, and it felt like one hand clapping—me holding on to the femme thing, when she is pretty dismissive of butch-femme culture.

So, one day I woke up and it was gone. I felt like my femme ID had become obsolete.

I look very straight—make-up, big earrings, long, layered hair, and I wear dresses and skirts every day, with boots. Most people assume I'm straight.

But one day recently I realized I make the butch conductor on the LIRR very nervous. I'm certain she recognizes me as femme, and sort of activates it in me, though I hadn't been in touch with the ID for a long time.

I guess that sounds very dependent on others, that whole "activate" thing—like I'm some kind of doll waiting to be taken down from the shelf. Yuk! That isn't what I mean.

I have to think about this. The words aren't really right.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

I've said already somewhere on the site, being femme was always a contextual ID for me—it was my way of "coming out" in my attraction to butch women.

Eventually, though, I ended up with a woman who looks and acts butch in many ways, but doesn't ascribe to that ID, and it felt like one hand clapping—me holding on to the femme thing, when she is pretty dismissive of butch-femme culture.

So, one day I woke up and it was gone. I felt like my femme ID had become obsolete.

I kinda had that, but in reverse. I felt very strongly about my femme ID once. It was my ID and had nothing to do with anyone I dated, Femme was who I was. Only then I dated a woman who made me feel like being femme was a cage. There was something about her that made my femininity ugly and dirty and an obligation. It was only after our relationship ended that I realised her ex before me had the same experience and also rejected the femme ID while with her.
It was probably a good thing as then I met my husband and a femme identity would have been obsolete anyhow.

Perhaps if it can be activated it can also be deactivated.

[SweetJane]

Originally Posted by LipstickLola

*Ahem* Lipsticklola here
I can totally relate to the article. In the hetero world, I'm just another middle aged woman, in the community? I'm just another middle aged woman, LOL, unless I'm with my very butch Xg/f. Having come out later in life, but with a fairly good idea of "who" I was, it's still disconcerting to be somewhat discriminated against amongst other lesbians because I've been previously married to a man. So while we all promote diversity, inclusion, and want to wrap our arms around women like ourselves, (regardless of what label we wear) there is still the stigma of being different, even among gay women. Lipstick lesbians may continually have to come out of the closet, and then again there are times it almost feels easier to stay there.

Boy can I ever relate to your words, Lipsticklola! I am in an area that is gay-friendly for the most part, but I still appear to be straight in most situations because I read femme as an older woman. When I'm at gay events, most of the time I feel like an outsider as if I don't quite belong. It isn't that the lesbians (or the gay men for that matter) that I know value masculinity so much as they value androgyny, looking like everyone else, being like everyone else. Many women in this community read butchish but don't quite have the male energy. And others may sort of look femme but they aren't either.

Recently I was told by a butch-type lesbian to stop using labels for identity and to broaden who I wanted to be with. Well, honey, I'm a stone femme. I don't want to be anything else and I only want to be with someone who gets who I am. My preference is for my stone complement. I may be a very, very late bloomer but I'd rather be alone than settle for someone who would try to make me into something I'm not.

Lipsticklola, we femmes have to stick together.

[Passionaria]

Again, thank you Quintease for posting this article and starting this conversation. I love her attitude, the exuberance of youth and exploration, makes me giggle, Not the subject matter, but her way of dealing.

I have led a pretty sheltered gay life, as in I have mostly been in the Butch Femme community. Recently I have been branching out and going to different events just to explore out of my comfort zone. I am finding that I am more accepted by my straight community of friends as a high femme lesbian than the andro-lesbian world. I have men friends who I know are interested in me, they have said so. I tell them about my (at the time girlfriend) and they are sad but rise to the occasion with respect and care. Same with my straight women friends (well they don't hit on me). I am out at work, and totally accepted. Now this is Austin.

This has not been true in my ventures into the androgynous lesbian world. One evening I went to a lesbian "book club" where a member was doing a reading from a new book she had written and published. I could not believe the reaction I got. I felt like an Amazonian Parrot who had landed in a corn field of crows. And those crows sure had ruffled feathers. I made them very uncomfortable. I looked around to see who was who and who was with who, trying to get a feel for the situation. It was hard to tell because all of them had on the same uniform. Mens shorts, polo T's or regular T's and Birkenstocks or plain manish sandals with boyish hair cuts. There was a rigid conformance to their dress and behavior. I'm like OK (don't hate me) I maybe a drag queen parrot, but you all feel like a bowl of oatmeal with nothing in it. No sumptuousness, no creamy rich butter, no honey dripping over cinnamon, just plain oatmeal. I can accept that they like plain oatmeal, but I find it boring. So we have differences, that's cool. I figure I'll just ask intelligent questions and meet them on an intellectual level. Well I made the speaker so nervous she had to be rude to me to feel in control. Her partner had to say in front of everyone, be nice she may want to buy your book. REALLY?

From this and other experiences I am starting believe that what they are yelling in their conformity is I'm not a man or a woman, I'm a Lesbian. And there appears to be a strict and yes narrow adherence to a set of standards that must be followed to be accepted in this community. Running to much male energy or too much female energy means your not one of the pack. Now these are generalizations, I know, but I'm trying to understand what I am seeing and feeling in reference to being a femme. Now I'm going somewhere with this so don't judge me. I could tell that I turned this author on, because she was all twitchy, she had a hard on and I was making her have to deal with her nasty masculinity in front of people who would judge her for it, and her partner who looked just like her, while she was trying to sell us on her book. So she was rude to me to deny the whole situation.

Case in point 2:
I was dating a lesbian boi who likes feminine women. But all the women she had dated were "lesbians" not high femmes. As a femme I am not going to pretend I don't like that nasty man thing your strapping on. I'm going to "put it down", cause I like that kind of sex. She felt her male energy full on for the first time in her life. She was talking about getting a sex change. And the things she was feeling scared her. She was online with a bunch of andro-lesbians and put herself out there like the freaky boi she is, and talking about likening to blindfold people and tie them up, and let me tell you, that went over like a ton of bricks. Next thing I know she's denying any love of her male energy, saying passionate wild sex is cold, and eating plain oatmeal with the rest of her friends, and saying Amen. But she fits in perfectly now. WOW, that's some social pressure!????

From these and a few other experiences the only thing that I can figure out as to why Femmes are treated the way we are in the andro community is this: Feminine energy is a powerful thing, especially when expressed with out inhibition. It appears that there is a fear or distaste of Butch energy because it represents something many of them dislike....men. And the all out feminine energy represents a sell out to men, or a lushness that arouses the male energy. All of which appears to be taboo. Have I lost my mind, or does any of this make sense?? I'm really trying to understand my experiences.....

Pashi (the Drag Queen Parrot)

[SweetJane]

Passionaria, you're bringing the Word. This is exactly what I've experienced here. I long for my own kind, to be validated by them.

[Martina]

i know a lot of non-bf lesbians who have hot sex, in fact, kinky sex. Just saying.

[LipstickLola]

My Xg/f had never been with a femme lesbian before, all of her previous relationships had been with very androgynous (in appearence outwardly) lesbians. There was a period of time that I felt she was quite uncomfortable with me, then there were times I felt like she reveled in it, I let her be her strong beautiful self, but then when I wanted to, I was just as strong and anything but the femme I appeared to be on the outside, such as changing the oil in my truck, I used to sneak and do it, LOL
All in all, I believe this was a core issue in the demise of the relationship.

Sometimes I still just want to scream, why, why, why???? can't we all be happy?

[apretty]

good article, thanks.

[Passionaria]

Originally Posted by Martina

i know a lot of non-bf lesbians who have hot sex, in fact, kinky sex. Just saying.

I don't doubt that at all, but it wasn't cool to be kinky in this bunch. The need for conformity shouted that, to me anyway.

<3 Pashi

[*Anya*]

I enjoyed the article and agree that as a femme lesbian I do need to continually "come out" unless I am with my crew-cut butch and then it is pretty clear what I am.

During my last hospitalization as she would walk the halls with me trailing my IV pole and holding her arm, I saw recognition wash over the face of everyone passed or if they came into my room and saw her- they knew right away I was a lesbian. I liked it because I did not need to say a word and I was instantly out.

I personally would rather keep this thread on the original focus and point of the article, than turn it into one on some androgynous lesbians being intolerant of the butch-femme dynamic.

It always makes me very uncomcomfortable when I see that happening. Butch-femme is a small minority within a small minority and generalizations always bother me. I am not discounting anyone's own personal experiences.

I personally would rather hear about how each of us continually need to come out as invisible femmes, than becoming negative about other lesbians not into our dynamic.

I have been out for some 34 years. I have had relationships with a femme, butches and androgynous lesbians. It is the fault of no one that what rings my own chimes are butches in general and at this point in my life, my love, my butch; in particular.

Why anyone of us are turned on by the butch-femme dynamic can't be explained, it just is.

My lesbian androgynous sisters not into our shared b-f dynamic still deal with the same issues that we do as lesbians in general and for that reason alone, I personally do not feel comfortable focusing on how they may or may not feel comfortable with strap-on sex. For me, that would be another thread entirely.

[LipstickLola]

I actually 'came out' again this past weekend to someone I'd known all my life, the look on their face was pure confusion.
Sigh...........Just keep on shining in my own way I guess!

[Kelt]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

I enjoyed the article and agree that as a femme lesbian I do need to continually "come out" unless I am with my crew-cut butch and then it is pretty clear what I am.

During my last hospitalization as she would walk the halls with me trailing my IV pole and holding her arm, I saw recognition wash over the face of everyone passed or if they came into my room and saw her- they knew right away I was a lesbian. I liked it because I did not need to say a word and I was instantly out.

From the butch perspective this provided me with an interesting learning experience as well.

Given my appearance I am pretty much never mistaken as straight. I am accustomed to being instantly categorized whether for good or for bad. When we would walk the hospital together it was just those same old looks as far as I was concerned.

I first started to realize what she was going though when I would return to her room and someone else was already there. Sometimes if I would step out to check on something, or get a meal I would come back and there would be somebody new talking to her. Whether a nurse or doctor or someone else, there would be this big double take when I would walk into the room.

They would be looking at her and talking with her and glance over to see me. At that point you could practically see the gears start turning in their heads. They would look back at her and give her that second evaluation look. Then the lightbulb would go on.

They were extremely good about treating us as a respected couple. But it gave me a chance to see that she does in fact operate under a cloud of assumption that others place upon her. I don't know what went on in these people's minds as they reassessed her. But it was clear to me that that was what was going on.

It was good for me to see this. I guess I just always thought that it would be easier to select who did and did not know, and have the option of passing.

I think about it a little differently now. I can see where having everyone assume that you are something you are not and having to constantly correct them if you want them to get it right would be cumbersome at best.

No answers here, just an observation.

I continue to be impressed with all of the femmes out there, but this one in particular.

[Passionaria]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

I personally would rather keep this thread on the original focus and point of the article, than turn it into one on some androgynous lesbians being intolerant of the butch-femme dynamic.

It always makes me very uncomcomfortable when I see that happening. Butch-femme is a small minority within a small minority and generalizations always bother me. I am not discounting anyone's own personal experiences.

I personally would rather hear about how each of us continually need to come out as invisible femmes, than becoming negative about other lesbians not into our dynamic.

I have been out for some 34 years. I have had relationships with a femme, butches and androgynous lesbians. It is the fault of no one that what rings my own chimes are butches in general and at this point in my life, my love, my butch; in particular.
.

Hi Anya,
I was sharing a couple of recent experiences, about me coming out as a femme, out side of the B-F Community. Several in a row, that left me feeling really seen and unwanted. I didn't create the mindset of the different groups, I walked into it, and was shocked. I apologize if my experiences make you uncomfortable. I can assure you not as uncomfortable as I am......And strap on sex was a subject in this experience, as well as male energy, and being too femme. The bottom line is that these experiences were far from positive, and left me really sad and baffled.

I can't pretend these experiences were wonderful sisterhood bonding moments in the lesbian world, they were not, and quite frankly I needed a bit of support. I realize that I have strong feelings about my experiences, and that I am intense and verbose and descriptive, but I am also straight up honest about how I felt it, what I saw. Writing it out helped me process it. Honestly if you all read that and can not tell my heart is hurting, well.................


PS I hope you are mending well. It's nice to see you happy with your sweetie
<3 Pashi

[deedarino]

I crave being out and proud...yet unless partnered, I am invisible. I am automatically considered straight and I assure you I am not. In fact, often I have to assure potential partners and wayward males that I am not.

There was a time that I changed my look to fit in, to be able to be a LESBIAN...but I did not fit in. Turns out you can change your clothes but it doesn't change you. I looked ridiculous and more importantly, felt like I was in logger drag. I wanted to just be who I was but thought something was wrong with me. Maybe I was a faker, maybe I was confused. I was constantly asked by my friends (who didn't understand it any more than I did), "If you like girls that look like guys why don't you just date guys???" I had no idea but that thought wasn't appealing at all.

My life changed when I found a community of Butch/Femmes. Forever the loves of my life. I was like a kid at christmas...and probably acted like one too...lol. I put back on MY clothes and my lipstick, and my confidence...I still have no answers as to why but I now know exactly who I am. I may not always be "out" but I am always proud.

And I am grateful for you all...

[Library_girl]

Originally Posted by deedarino

I crave being out and proud...yet unless partnered, I am invisible. I am automatically considered straight and I assure you I am not. In fact, often I have to assure potential partners and wayward males that I am not.

There was a time that I changed my look to fit in, to be able to be a LESBIAN...but I did not fit in. Turns out you can change your clothes but it doesn't change you. I looked ridiculous and more importantly, felt like I was in logger drag. I wanted to just be who I was but thought something was wrong with me. Maybe I was a faker, maybe I was confused. I was constantly asked by my friends (who didn't understand it any more than I did), "If you like girls that look like guys why don't you just date guys???" I had no idea but that thought wasn't appealing at all.

My life changed when I found a community of Butch/Femmes. Forever the loves of my life. I was like a kid at christmas...and probably acted like one too...lol. I put back on MY clothes and my lipstick, and my confidence...I still have no answers as to why but I now know exactly who I am. I may not always be "out" but I am always proud.

And I am grateful for you all...

Absolutely! We femmes ARE usually invisible when unpartnered, which is so frustrating. Several femmes together can look like a group of straight women. Going to a "lesbian" event as a solo femme....eek! I stick out like a sore thumb. The looks I get feel like "What's with the skirt?"

This is not new. When I first came out of the closet 25 years ago, I tried to fit into some type of lesbian classification. Back then it was sporty dyke, hikin' dyke, granola dyke, baby dyke, etc. (Pardon the use of "dyke" if that offends you--that's what we said in my part of the world back then.) It always felt weird and unnatural. I still never purchased Birkenstocks, but I did get some Tevas. LOL Then later when I discovered the butch/femme world of the early 90's...woo hoo! It was like coming home. There were so few of us, but I didn't care. I'd found my femme identity. It has gotten a little bit easier in "Mainstream Lesbiana" in the last 20 years, I have to say. But that's due, in part, to societal improvements, as well as the growth of the LGBT community. Hooray for all of it!

And now I just hope for and push for a better recognition of femmes who are unpartnered, like myself. Short of a giant forehead tattoo.....I like the suggestions on the Femme Flagging thread.

[*Anya*]

Since I was personally addressed because of my post, I shall respond in kind. I generally prefer to do it in a pm but again, since the post was addressed to me specifically, I will post my response here.

Pashi, I was not uncomfortable hearing of your own personal experiences.

What I did state, without calling you out personally in my post, was that generalizations made me uncomfortable!

Besides generalizations about androgynous lesbians, there felt to me, a judgmental tone to your post that yes, did make me uncomfortable and I quote:

"I felt like an Amazonian Parrot who had landed in a corn field of crows. And those crows sure had ruffled feathers. I made them very uncomfortable. I looked around to see who was who and who was with who, trying to get a feel for the situation. It was hard to tell because all of them had on the same uniform. Mens shorts, polo T's or regular T's and Birkenstocks or plain manish sandals with boyish hair cuts. There was a rigid conformance to their dress and behavior. I maybe a drag queen parrot, but you all feel like a bowl of oatmeal with nothing in it. "

You, yourself, acknowledged that you were generalizing:

"Now these are generalizations, I know, but I'm trying to understand what I am seeing and feeling in reference to being a femme."

One of the insults some straight men (not all) have always liked to throw at lesbians is that we hate or dislike men as the reason we are lesbians.

I expect it when I hear it from them but did not expect to see you use that same old tired myth that lesbians dislike men and that is why we are lesbians. Your post also included this:

"It appears that there is a fear or distaste of Butch energy because it represents something many of them dislike....men".

We have no idea what their issues with butch identity are but to say that many of them dislike men? That is part of that old myth about lesbians.

The intent of the article was about the need for femme lesbians to keep on coming out due to our invisibility.

That is one issue that all of us as femmes/ femme lesbians can relate to.

I just do not relate to the need to put down, be critical or hostile towards lesbians or dykes that are not into the butch-femme dynamic or who chose to live their life in a more androgynous manner than I do.

Some may have been rude to femmes from a lack of understanding. It has happened to me. I just accepted that we had differences and found my place in our community.

I still think it is a large enough community to have some sensitivity and understanding of those issues that we have in common with all dykes and lesbians: a lack of tolerance and acceptance by the society at large.

I can love the butch-femme dynamic without needing to be intolerant of those not into it for whatever their reasons may be.

That is how I see it.

[lettertodaddy]

Originally Posted by Library_girl

(Pardon the use of "dyke" if that offends you--that's what we said in my part of the world back then.)

I love the word dyke. I consider myself to be a femme dyke. That word encapsulates so many meanings, but when I say I'm interested in butch dykes, people seem to understand what I mean.

[grenade]

"I could literally fingerbang a girl in the street but because I’d do it with glitter nail polish and bracelets clanging, I won’t be viewed as truly, purely gay."

This is so true to me.

My boss recently confided to me that because her boss had hired a close friend (her boss is a lesbian) the whole company would be nothing but lesbians. "You know how they are, if you have one they bring all their friends."

I looked at her and asked, "Really? You're saying this to me?"

Her response, "Oh, I forget."

[mariamma]

Originally Posted by grenade

My boss recently confided to me that because her boss had hired a close friend (her boss is a lesbian) the whole company would be nothing but lesbians. "You know how they are, if you have one they bring all their friends."

I looked at her and asked, "Really? You're saying this to me?"

Her response, "Oh, I forget."

Well that's just poor manners on your boss's part. Did she say "Pardon me?" I need to learn from others mistakes but this one is kind of yucky. May I never be as yucky and insensitive as Grenade's boss. I wish you and peace.