It Hurts Me.

[Apocalipstic]

I think Turtle has it right though, we have to teach people how we want to be treated, we can't expect all Butches to just know how we want to be treated...especially when its so different from Femme to Femme.

I know Femmes who LOVE to be asked to use their beauty or cleavage to get stuff done, just as I know plenty of Butches who would never ask.

We all are different and need different things from each other.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I think Turtle has it right though, we have to teach people how we want to be treated, we can't expect all Butches to just know how we want to be treated...especially when its so different from Femme to Femme.

I know Femmes who LOVE to be asked to use their beauty or cleavage to get stuff done, just as I know plenty of Butches who would never ask.

We all are different and need different things from each other.

I guess as a female bodied person I expect those like me or have the same herstory to NOT super impose binary shenanigans on me.

One no, one explanation should be enough, common courtesy should BE expected it doesn't take rocket science to figure out what's right and what's wrong.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I guess as a female bodied person I expect those like me or have the same herstory to NOT super impose binary shenanigans on me.

One no, one explanation should be enough, common courtesy should BE expected it doesn't take rocket science to figure out what's right and what's wrong.

LMAO, yeah...one would hope.
and no one does that to me any more.
Not sure if its my age, or just that they know better now after trying it once.

I totally agree that common courtesy should be expected, but not everyone learned it growing up and must be taught how to act now. (around Me, if they want to be around Me lol)

[Jess]

Firedance,
Nice to meet you and great post. This is one aspect of the dynamics between butch and femme that I don't think I have seen discussed here or any other b/f forum I have read. So.. thanks!

I tend to agree with a part of Apoc's post , in the different expectations/ behaviors from butch to butch or femme to femme. It never excuses bad behavior or unpracticed manners, however, it can be a long slow walk through a hot coal bed sometimes trying to navigate individuals based on generalizations.

I can not tell you how many femme's I have spoken to who will tell you flat out that they use those "charms" as currency. I think based on that, some butches may feel it is "ok" to ask them to use it for whatever seeming advantage it may offer in a given situation. ( The "extra toast" cracked me the hell up, btw.. dude, here's a quarter.. git sum) I may even at some point may have asked my girl to deal with a mechanic or something, because yes, usually my girl/ partner is better received than I am, especially in very testosterone laden spaces. I can guarantee, it was never for some extra toast or what have you.

I appreciate this topic. I think the nuances of our "dance" are what takes a hokey-pokey to a tango. They will also let us know when we may just be dancing to a different beat. Discussions like this, when dealt with positively can be very thought provoking and sometimes, enlightening for folks who may have never seen that behavior as "wrong", due to cultural differences, whatever. It may have never dawned upon them.

Again, thank you

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Jess

Firedance,
Nice to meet you and great post. This is one aspect of the dynamics between butch and femme that I don't think I have seen discussed here or any other b/f forum I have read. So.. thanks!

I tend to agree with a part of Apoc's post , in the different expectations/ behaviors from butch to butch or femme to femme. It never excuses bad behavior or unpracticed manners, however, it can be a long slow walk through a hot coal bed sometimes trying to navigate individuals based on generalizations.

I can not tell you how many femme's I have spoken to who will tell you flat out that they use those "charms" as currency. I think based on that, some butches may feel it is "ok" to ask them to use it for whatever seeming advantage it may offer in a given situation. ( The "extra toast" cracked me the hell up, btw.. dude, here's a quarter.. git sum) I may even at some point may have asked my girl to deal with a mechanic or something, because yes, usually my girl/ partner is better received than I am, especially in very testosterone laden spaces. I can guarantee, it was never for some extra toast or what have you.

I appreciate this topic. I think the nuances of our "dance" are what takes a hokey-pokey to a tango. They will also let us know when we may just be dancing to a different beat. Discussions like this, when dealt with positively can be very thought provoking and sometimes, enlightening for folks who may have never seen that behavior as "wrong", due to cultural differences, whatever. It may have never dawned upon them.

Again, thank you

I know because I used to be one of those Femmes. I thought that was all I had going for me.

[Hack]

Firedance,

I am very sorry this happened to you and that butches have treated you in a way that is neither respectful nor admirable.

I happen to believe that one should take great pride in the way he/she treats a femme. To me, femmes are the most amazing women because they choose to stand next to us, stand up for us, and stand with us. They do all that in the face of what can be some rather serious hostility in the world.

And honestly, a butch should know how to avoid a line, get a good table, but most importantly -- treat you properly. At all times. I believe in having a standard that I maintain with all femmes I know.

And thank you for saying you have our (collective) back. I have found that sometimes girls say that, but then their actions don't reflect that. It is nice to encounter a femme who backs it up.

Best,
Jake

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by Hack

And thank you for saying you have our (collective) back. I have found that sometimes girls say that, but then their actions don't reflect that. It is nice to encounter a femme who backs it up.

Best,
Jake

Having someone's back is not an easy thing to do. It is a balancing act at times. Riley & I went shopping recently and I hovered near the dressing room, just in case there was an issue. But, I tried to do it in a way that did not take away from his masculinity. Some girls may not know how to do it in a way that shows support without "showing up."

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Hack

Firedance,

I am very sorry this happened to you and that butches have treated you in a way that is neither respectful nor admirable.

I happen to believe that one should take great pride in the way he/she treats a femme. To me, femmes are the most amazing women because they choose to stand next to us, stand up for us, and stand with us. They do all that in the face of what can be some rather serious hostility in the world.

And honestly, a butch should know how to avoid a line, get a good table, but most importantly -- treat you properly. At all times. I believe in having a standard that I maintain with all femmes I know.

And thank you for saying you have our (collective) back. I have found that sometimes girls say that, but then their actions don't reflect that. It is nice to encounter a femme who backs it up.

Best,
Jake

All true.

However, younger or newer Butches, who have not been around our dynamic, sometimes need some guidance in the what is and is not cool to say, and how to get tables, open doors and all the wonderful things you guys do for us!

[macele]

from my point of view, i don't see this as a butch problem, ... but rather a lack of tact. to say things such as this is offensive. i've never done it. i've never thought about asking a woman to do it.

this feels like a butch trying to act like some heterosexual men do. i grew up, and i am still in a heterosexual world. i try to stay away from most things hetero, in regards to relationships. obviously i can't with all things. but something like this can be avoided if i don't pick up the tactless practices of some heterosexual men.

when i think of a lesbian butch, i think of sensitive. sweet. caring. with touches of tomboy.

good thread. thanks firedance.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by macele

from my point of view, i don't see this as a butch problem, ... but rather a lack of tact. to say things such as this is offensive. i've never done it. i've never thought about asking a woman to do it.

this feels like a butch trying to act like some heterosexual men do. i grew up, and i am still in a heterosexual world. i try to stay away from most things hetero, in regards to relationships. obviously i can't with all things. but something like this can be avoided if i don't pick up the tactless practices of some heterosexual men.

when i think of a lesbian butch, i think of sensitive. sweet. caring. with touches of tomboy.

good thread. thanks firedance.

There are some very NOT "sensitive. sweet. caring. with touches of tomboy" Butch Lesbians around.

There are hard assed very very masculine Butch Lesbians out there. Sometimes, these Butches need some guidance from friends and Femmes on how to act. lol

Not trying to be argumentative

[Hack]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

All true.

However, younger or newer Butches, who have not been around our dynamic, sometimes need some guidance in the what is and is not cool to say, and how to get tables, open doors and all the wonderful things you guys do for us!

I don't disagree, my friend. But I will push back just a bit and say that I have always been a respectful, well-mannered guy. It comes from how I was raised and who raised me. I was raised around Old World/Old School gentlemen who treated women like goddesses. That is imprinted on me, and always has been.



Jake

[tara_kerrie]

Originally Posted by Hack

I don't disagree, my friend. But I will push back just a bit and say that I have always been a respectful, well-mannered guy. It comes from how I was raised and who raised me. I was raised around Old World/Old School gentlemen who treated women like goddesses. That is imprinted on me, and always has been.



Jake

Nice to meet you Jake. I agree 100%

[tara_kerrie]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

All true.

However, younger or newer Butches, who have not been around our dynamic, sometimes need some guidance in the what is and is not cool to say, and how to get tables, open doors and all the wonderful things you guys do for us!

I am one of the younger or newer butches that you mentioned BUT I do treat ladies with respect. I try to always open doors for her. I would NEVER dream of asking her to do anything like mentioned above.
It frustrates me that my generation and younger do not have these values and morals taught to them as they are growing up.
I was raised by a preacher to say yes ma'am, no ma'am, etc. he taught the boys to open doors for ladies. He taught them to be respectful no matter what. When I came out I adopted those values for me.
A promise to all the femme's reading this...i will NEVER treat a lady the way that some of you have been treated.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by KerrieH

I am one of the younger or newer butches that you mentioned BUT I do treat ladies with respect. I try to always open doors for her. I would NEVER dream of asking her to do anything like mentioned above.
It frustrates me that my generation and younger do not have these values and morals taught to them as they are growing up.
I was raised by a preacher to say yes ma'am, no ma'am, etc. he taught the boys to open doors for ladies. He taught them to be respectful no matter what. When I came out I adopted those values for me.
A promise to all the femme's reading this...i will NEVER treat a lady the way that some of you have been treated.

Ha, I was raised by a preacher too, maybe that ios why I love nice manners.

I hope I did not sound like I was slamming younger Butches, just that in some cases people need to be told how we expect to be treated.

[Firedance]

Originally Posted by Jess

Firedance,
Nice to meet you and great post. This is one aspect of the dynamics between butch and femme that I don't think I have seen discussed here or any other b/f forum I have read. So.. thanks!

I tend to agree with a part of Apoc's post , in the different expectations/ behaviors from butch to butch or femme to femme. It never excuses bad behavior or unpracticed manners, however, it can be a long slow walk through a hot coal bed sometimes trying to navigate individuals based on generalizations.

I think the nuances of our "dance" are what takes a hokey-pokey to a tango. They will also let us know when we may just be dancing to a different beat. Discussions like this, when dealt with positively can be very thought provoking and sometimes, enlightening for folks who may have never seen that behavior as "wrong", due to cultural differences, whatever. It may have never dawned upon them.

Again, thank you

I quite agree, different people, different expectations, different dynamics.

However for me, this issue goes deeper than personal preference. I almost titled the thread, "How to kill The Dance". Which may sound overly dramatic, at the same time, it is true for me. If my gender/sexuality is not recognized by a counterpart, be they Butch/boi/Trans Man then there IS no dance. There is no dynamic. To me, this speaks to the soul of our micro-culture, and the history of our dynamic.

I have a hard time imagining any OFOS partner casually tossing a Femme at a straight guy... Lol. And yes, once it really was for a piece of toast!

[puddin']

unpracticed manners, isn't dat an oxymoron?

[durrrrrrrr]

first of all. FireDance, I am sorry to hear that happened to you.

as for myself, I taught myself ( cuz my Dad was and is an ass , my Mother passed away when i was young ) to treat ALL ladies with respect.

not only treat the ladies with respect, treat EVERYONE with respect. I try to and dont have to work at that to hard, to practice that every day.

I offer my chair if i see a lady standing, I will offer my chair if i see a butch standing.

if i see a lady who is walkin behind me, I will open and leave the door open for her. I will do that also for anyone walkin behind me.

It's the simple things that can make anyone's day