What makes a Butch "Butch"

[BullDog]

Butch is absolutely not male. If it was we wouldn't need to even have the gender identity of butch. We could all just call ourselves men or male. The whole point of gender identities such as butch and femme is that we claim our own identities and do not conform to gender stereotypes or traditional expectations. We have forged our own path. So why would we fall back on heteronormative stereotypes and equate butch with male?

Male id'd butches are not "more butch" than those of us who are not. Also the vast majority of butches I have ever known or met in real life identify with being a female and woman and are very proud of it. Things get quite skewed online. I hate the hierarchy and when butch is equated to male and when those of us who are not are made to feel less than or not true butch. It is infuriating and actually makes no sense. It does not reflect reality and how most butches live out in the real world at all. And yes it still does happen all the time where people do this. I can think of several recent threads right on this forum where it has been quite blatant.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male. Female masculinity and butch are very powerful in their own right. I do think it has mostly to do with energy and how one walks through the world- which is hard to describe or pin down.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Butch is absolutely not male. If it was we wouldn't need to even have the gender identity of butch. We could all just call ourselves men or male. The whole point of gender identities such as butch and femme is that we claim our own identities and do not conform to gender stereotypes or traditional expectations. We have forged our own path. So why would we fall back on heteronormative stereotypes and equate butch with male?

Male id'd butches are not "more butch" than those of us who are not. Also the vast majority of butches I have ever known or met in real life identify with being a female and woman and are very proud of it. Things get quite skewed online. I hate the hierarchy and when butch is equated to male and when those of us who are not are made to feel less than or not true butch. It is infuriating and actually makes no sense. It does not reflect reality and how most butches live out in the real world at all. And yes it still does happen all the time where people do this. I can think of several recent threads right on this forum where it has been quite blatant.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male. Female masculinity and butch are very powerful in their own right. I do think it has mostly to do with energy and how one walks through the world- which is hard to describe or pin down.

Thank you for this. I love when people see me and appreciate me for the woman I am.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Butch is absolutely not male. If it was we wouldn't need to even have the gender identity of butch. We could all just call ourselves men or male. The whole point of gender identities such as butch and femme is that we claim our own identities and do not conform to gender stereotypes or traditional expectations. We have forged our own path. So why would we fall back on heteronormative stereotypes and equate butch with male?

Male id'd butches are not "more butch" than those of us who are not. Also the vast majority of butches I have ever known or met in real life identify with being a female and woman and are very proud of it. Things get quite skewed online. I hate the hierarchy and when butch is equated to male and when those of us who are not are made to feel less than or not true butch. It is infuriating and actually makes no sense. It does not reflect reality and how most butches live out in the real world at all. And yes it still does happen all the time where people do this. I can think of several recent threads right on this forum where it has been quite blatant.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male. Female masculinity and butch are very powerful in their own right. I do think it has mostly to do with energy and how one walks through the world- which is hard to describe or pin down.

i love this post. <3

it reminds me of an article my partner shared with me recently which talked about the idea that some folks have that transitioning is somehow the "completion" of butchness...so all butch lesbians should essentially want to be trans*/want to be "real men." i've seen this stereotype especially coming from straight folks who misunderstand butch/femme and trans* identities, but i feel like it is related to the masculine/maleness supremacy in our society and the idea that we should all essentially have penis envy and want to be as cool as "real men" (yuck). to me this idea is harmful to everyone, and it misinterprets our queer identities.

(the article is here - it's written by a female butch - if anyone wants to check it out.)

[starryeyes]

Exactly!!!! This reminds me of the most annoying question I have ever been asked, "so, if you like girls who look like boys then why are you not with a man?"

I will quote this the next time I am asked this! Hehe

Originally Posted by BullDog

Butch is absolutely not male. If it was we wouldn't need to even have the gender identity of butch. We could all just call ourselves men or male. The whole point of gender identities such as butch and femme is that we claim our own identities and do not conform to gender stereotypes or traditional expectations. We have forged our own path. So why would we fall back on heteronormative stereotypes and equate butch with male?

Male id'd butches are not "more butch" than those of us who are not. Also the vast majority of butches I have ever known or met in real life identify with being a female and woman and are very proud of it. Things get quite skewed online. I hate the hierarchy and when butch is equated to male and when those of us who are not are made to feel less than or not true butch. It is infuriating and actually makes no sense. It does not reflect reality and how most butches live out in the real world at all. And yes it still does happen all the time where people do this. I can think of several recent threads right on this forum where it has been quite blatant.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male. Female masculinity and butch are very powerful in their own right. I do think it has mostly to do with energy and how one walks through the world- which is hard to describe or pin down.

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by starryeyes

Exactly!!!! This reminds me of the most annoying question I have ever been asked, "so, if you like girls who look like boys then why are you not with a man?"

I will quote this the next time I am asked this! Hehe

That question makes me throw up in my mouth a little.

[Cin]

I don’t think either male or female is necessarily synonymous with the identity of butch. For some butch is a gender unto itself. Others see a male or female identity as something to add to butch. To me the definition of butch and butch energy is fairly encompassed in the term female masculinity but I get that’s not for everyone.

I agree with bulldog’s assessment that woman tends to get subsumed under this umbrella concept and male/masculine always seems to come to the forefront, as per usual.

The hierarchy I think is more a natural extension of a misogynistic society that places more value on anything male than it is a consciously held belief in the superiority of male id’d butches or any other masculine identity over female id’d butches. Whether this is better or not is debatable. At least a consciously held belief is owned and therefore can be challenged. The sneaky ways misogyny can control some of our thought processes is difficult to break through.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I don’t think either male or female is necessarily synonymous with the identity of butch. For some butch is a gender unto itself. Others see a male or female identity as something to add to butch. To me the definition of butch and butch energy is fairly encompassed in the term female masculinity but I get that’s not for everyone.

I agree with bulldog’s assessment that woman tends to get subsumed under this umbrella concept and male/masculine always seems to come to the forefront, as per usual.

The hierarchy I think is more a natural extension of a misogynistic society that places more value on anything male than it is a consciously held belief in the superiority of male id’d butches or any other masculine identity over female id’d butches. Whether this is better or not is debatable. At least a consciously held belief is owned and therefore can be challenged. The sneaky ways misogyny can control some of our thought processes is difficult to break through.

Yes I agree with this. I don't believe people go around thinking oh well male id butches are superior. It is that butch gets defined on male terms because male is valued over female- and we get that from being in a misogynistic society.

Also despite all the talk about how horrible "the binary" is people still seem to have a hard time separating masculinity from male or femininity from female . I think it is abundantly clear that there are men with feminine energy and women with masculine energy and plenty of people with a mixture and who don't clear identify with being strictly male or female. Yet we tend to fall back to what we have been raised with. Again, I believe one of the major points of identifying as butch, femme or other gender identities is that we are forging our own paths.

Butch has everything to do with being a lesbian/queer masculine female for me- that is what butch is to me. It isn't for everyone. Butch is obviously not synonymous with female- not all females identify as butch and not all butches identify as female.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Butch is obviously not synonymous with female- not all females identify as butch and not all butches identify as female.

Obviously. LOL. You are right. It was perhaps not the right word to choose. I meant neither male nor female are a necessary addition to the identity of butch and that butch is not automatically considered a female or male identity. Although for me it is a female identity, as I am female and a woman as well as a butch and a feminist and a lesbian.

And I do identify with genderqueer but I don't identify as genderqueer because as a woman there is something about it that feels a tad erasing. But I am eternally evolving so perhaps i will find a way to reconcile the two. My feelings are probably left over from when people argued over whether femme could be a genderqueer identity.

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by starryeyes

Exactly!!!! This reminds me of the most annoying question I have ever been asked, "so, if you like girls who look like boys then why are you not with a man?"

I will quote this the next time I am asked this! Hehe

I hate that question.

It is right up there with the statement "well if you like women then you have not had the right man." Luckily, I have a great reply for that.