What men say about women when they don't know you've lived as a woman

[CherylNYC]

Whether and when women denigrate themselves, each other, or men is not the subject of the article. It's an article about what men say to each other when they think they're just amongst other men like themselves. It's furthermore about the duty that people who once were female, or at least female bodied, have to not let those comments pass.

It's endlessly irritating to me that we can't simply discuss male misogyny without having to add that 'women say f**ked up stuff, too'. Or my favourite, 'Women abuse/rape men, too'. It's really, really OK to talk about male misogyny without talking about ways in which women fail. Really.

As for the actual content of the article, I've often found myself repulsed and threatened by what men have said to each other when they thought women weren't listening. I work with a great many giant, well fed men whose job is to lift and move scenery from here to there. While there are plenty who do not, and would not, say the things I find most horrifying, they're also not in the habit of challenging those who do. There have been far too many times when I've found myself on the other side of a piece of scenery while the abovementioned oversized men have said something particularly violent and threatening about specific women, or women in general. The few times when they've realised I was within earshot, they've been embarrassed and apologetic.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

It's endlessly irritating to me that we can't simply discuss male misogyny without having to add that 'women say f**ked up stuff, too'. Or my favourite, 'Women abuse/rape men, too'. It's really, really OK to talk about male misogyny without talking about ways in which women fail. Really.

Yes, yes, yes, yes!! Thank you for saying this. There must be some way in which this is extremely threatening because many women feel the need to come to the defense of men or male id'd people whenever this kind of conversation starts. I don't think it's necessary to divert the focus. I think discussing misogyny is always worthwhile. I think communication, accountability and honesty are key in order to bring about change. As women or female bodied people we don't need to protect or defend or deflect.

This kind of stuff reminds me of conversations about racism where someone feels it's important to say that black people had slaves and/or sold rival tribe members to slave traders.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Thank you for voicing this so well!!!

I thought the same thing but couldn't come up with this great of wording!!

Thanks Cheryl!!!

I agree 100%

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Whether and when women denigrate themselves, each other, or men is not the subject of the article. It's an article about what men say to each other when they think they're just amongst other men like themselves. It's furthermore about the duty that people who once were female, or at least female bodied, to not let those comments pass.

It's endlessly irritating to me that we can't simply discuss male misogyny without having to add that 'women say f**ked up stuff, too'. Or my favourite, 'Women abuse/rape men, too'. It's really, really OK to talk about male misogyny without talking about ways in which women fail. Really.

As for the actual content of the article, I've often found myself repulsed and threatened by what men have said to each other when they thought women weren't listening. I work with a great many giant, well fed men whose job is to lift and move scenery from here to there. While there are plenty who do not, and would not, say the things I find most horrifying, they're also not in the habit of challenging those who do. There have been far too many times when I've found myself on the other side of a piece of scenery while the abovementioned oversized men have said something particularly violent and threatening about specific women, or women in general. The few times when they've realised I was within earshot, they've been embarrassed and apologetic.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

As for the actual content of the article, I've often found myself repulsed and threatened by what men have said to each other when they thought women weren't listening. I work with a great many giant, well fed men whose job is to lift and move scenery from here to there. While there are plenty who do not, and would not, say the things I find most horrifying, they're also not in the habit of challenging those who do. There have been far too many times when I've found myself on the other side of a piece of scenery while the abovementioned oversized men have said something particularly violent and threatening about specific women, or women in general. The few times when they've realised I was within earshot, they've been embarrassed and apologetic.

Their being embarrassed and apologetic is not my experience at all. In fact, where I work and have worked on and off for many years (warehouses, hardware stores etc), as well as the previous industry I worked in, the opposite was the case. Men were and are saying disgusting shit to women's faces. It wasn't and isn't something that they go around saying behind women's backs. It happens in both environments, whether women are present or not. When this shit happens in the work place, it's also management that needs to change. Many women don't say shit (or even defend these guys when someone challenges them) when a lot of similar statements as demonstrated in the article are said to them or about other women.

The fact that this shit is seen as socially acceptable should be addressed here, imo. When guys say this shit or display unsafe behaviour and a woman or transguy goes to management about it because its repeated frequently and often, management in those industries rarely take it seriously. And that should be the point, imo. That this is not some "shocking and earthshattering discovery" that men supposedly say when women aren't around/behind closed doors, but that men do say it when women are around and that authoritative bodies do not take it seriously. I've been hearing men say shit like this about and to women to women's faces since I was a kid, and particularly since I began working as a teen (having worked most in minimum wage jobs...which is perhaps another issue of in what environment and in front of what status of women men feel they can say and do anything without consequence...because there is no consequence in many of these industries). It's time to stop acting shocked about something we already know is happening every minute of every day, and start taking bigger steps to make sure those with the authoritative power to do something about it start taking this shit seriously and put consequences and appropriate education in place.

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

It's furthermore about the duty that people who once were female, or at least female bodied, have to not let those comments pass.

I'm sorry, but it's not for you or anyone else to label other people's bodies nor to tell them what their duty is according to the way you perceive their bodies. Everyone makes their own duty. I think every human being should be calling out misogyny, transphobia, racism, classism, homophobia, ableism and discrimination of any sort...but I would never place a "duty" on someone else's shoulders simply based on my perception of who they are and what I think they have or haven't experience because of the body I perceive them to inhabit or to have inhabited at any given time. You don't solve anything by mislabeling people's bodies and telling them what they should or shouldn't be doing according to their bodies.

[Apocalipstic]

I guess for me, I would hope that women or someone who was once female bodied, or anyone who has a mother, sister, daughter, female loved one would want to stand up for what is right.

But true Ender, we each do have our own walk.

I do know that I expect more out of women, while at the same time knowing that I don't always say anything and that my expecting more from a women is sexist in itself.

[aishah]

i've definitely been in food service jobs where i heard this shit (and experienced/saw other coworkers experience) sexual harassment on a daily basis by the managers and owners. i'm sure there are some men who wait til i'm out of earshot to say these things but i've been around plenty who, as ender says, have no problem saying it to my face because they can and it's considered socially acceptable.

i tend to take it as par for the course being a sex worker, but within the industry it's much different (and sometimes not as prevalent) because the power dynamics are different compared to other jobs.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by aishah

i've definitely been in food service jobs where i heard this shit (and experienced/saw other coworkers experience) sexual harassment on a daily basis by the managers and owners. i'm sure there are some men who wait til i'm out of earshot to say these things but i've been around plenty who, as ender says, have no problem saying it to my face because they can and it's considered socially acceptable.

The actual article isn't about overt sexual harassment, rather it's the side of men that many women don't know exist. What men say about women (and I suspect other minorities) when it's just other men within earshot. Sex workers don't necessarily experience sexual harassment, but they're privy to the way men talk about their wives, girlfriends and female colleagues.

My husband has warned a couple of early transition FTM's in our social circle to be ready for male 'banter'.

[aishah]

as a sex worker, i haven't actually experienced men talking much about their significant others (oddly enough). the worst thing most men say about their significant others to me is that they wish their significant other looked like me, or looked different, or was more adventurous in bed. i have experienced them talking badly about me behind my back and to my face, but the difference is that i am not at their mercy as i would be in a regular job, so i can just refuse to have them as a client (and sometimes blacklist them to other sex workers).

i get that the article is about what men say when women aren't around...i just (as ender and others have pointed out) am not sure this is necessarily a "hidden" side of men, since many of them are perfectly comfortable saying things like this when we ARE around. perhaps for some women it's a surprise but to most women i know it wouldn't be a surprise because men have said these things to our face.

[Teddybear]

As an FtM who is legally male and how has been in the transportation industy for over 23 yrs I have heard csi-men and women talk trash about the other. Some to the faces of the intended person or persons and some behind their backs.

I find this rude and appalling always have. I dont use a CB in my truck anymore due to this, I just couldnt keep my mouth shut whenever I heard a man trashing a woman or just being plain rude to her. It was easy to do it behind a mic of the CB cause I was anonymous however there was several times that I have been caught "correcting" the other person. Its never a pretty site however I stood my ground and always will.

I dont think its my RESPONSIBILITY as a female born bodied man to correct such behavior but that of a HUMAN being who wants all people to be accepted for who they ARE not who we think they SHOULD be.

I have never really lived as a woman, well IDENTIFIED as one, I was passing for a man years and I mean years prior to actually starting my transition. Im talking back in jr high I would be mistaken for a boy. So how would I go about addressing the issue with another man that once I lived as a woman and IM offended by what you are saying. Why cant I just be offended as a person who has a woman as my mother, who loves women and man who RESPECTS women? To me that is where I need to stand as a human being who wants all to be accepted for who they are and NOT what I think they should be.

For the last 7 years I have had an on going battle to get my parents to see me as their CHILD not JUST their daughter. I havent won the battle but I havent given up who I am either.

I think that all of us in some ways are guilty of some bad behavior towards the opposite gender or expression of their gender. I have caught myself saying things about both men and women when I witness how they are driving or doing something stupid. I may not say it out loud but it does cross my mind. Im not perfect nor will I ever be however I do see this as a fault of mine. Im working on it and have came along way cause I used to scream it at them.

I myself wish that in our ever changing world we as a people, a nation, a global citizen would recognize that each and every person is different is some ways and that is what makes the world a better place and exciting place.

I dont expect change to happen any time soon however I think each of us needs to take a step and keep moving forward towards that change. Maybe by time or grandchildren come along they will have a difference out look on what is gender and how to treat said the opposite genders.

[Teddybear]

Originally Posted by Teddybear

As an FtM who is legally male and how has been in the transportation industy for over 23 yrs I have heard csi-men and women talk trash about the other. Some to the faces of the intended person or persons and some behind their backs.

I find this rude and appalling always have. I dont use a CB in my truck anymore due to this, I just couldnt keep my mouth shut whenever I heard a man trashing a woman or just being plain rude to her. It was easy to do it behind a mic of the CB cause I was anonymous however there was several times that I have been caught "correcting" the other person. Its never a pretty site however I stood my ground and always will.

I dont think its my RESPONSIBILITY as a female born bodied man to correct such behavior but that of a HUMAN being who wants all people to be accepted for who they ARE not who we think they SHOULD be.

I have never really lived as a woman, well IDENTIFIED as one, I was passing for a man years and I mean years prior to actually starting my transition. Im talking back in jr high I would be mistaken for a boy. So how would I go about addressing the issue with another man that once I lived as a woman and IM offended by what you are saying. Why cant I just be offended as a person who has a woman as my mother, who loves women and man who RESPECTS women? To me that is where I need to stand as a human being who wants all to be accepted for who they are and NOT what I think they should be.

For the last 7 years I have had an on going battle to get my parents to see me as their CHILD not JUST their daughter. I havent won the battle but I havent given up who I am either.

I think that all of us in some ways are guilty of some bad behavior towards the opposite gender or expression of their gender. I have caught myself saying things about both men and women when I witness how they are driving or doing something stupid. I may not say it out loud but it does cross my mind. Im not perfect nor will I ever be however I do see this as a fault of mine. Im working on it and have came along way cause I used to scream it at them.

I myself wish that in our ever changing world we as a people, a nation, a global citizen would recognize that each and every person is different is some ways and that is what makes the world a better place and exciting place.

I dont expect change to happen any time soon however I think each of us needs to take a step and keep moving forward towards that change. Maybe by time or grandchildren come along they will have a difference out look on what is gender and how to treat said the opposite genders.

please note I misspelled a word in the 2nd paragraph so please dont rush to judgement I did change it

[Tuff Stuff]

Men mistake me for another guy all the time.There would be this group of guys(me included) and women were always a hot topic.We(women) are blamed for all their headaches.Women have also mistaken me for "another woman" and men were always to be blamed for this or that.The blame game.That's all it is,boring.

I have heard vulgar language used by both sexes,about the female and male anatomy.When you ask them to stop they only get worse.

My 2 cents worth

[AishasWrath]

A lot of men who say these things don't mean it in earnest. Most of the time it's an off-color expression of frustration and a way to desensitize to the awful things in the world, not actual disrespect or misogyny. I've said rude things in private about people I'm angry at, and rude words for various attributes of theirs have been deployed in those moments. It doesn't mean I hate their entire nationality or race or sex.

There are some men who say misogynist things and mean it, but in general nobody thinks highly of them except for their own kind.

That was a conundrum I ran into when living as male, the dual expectation that I imitate that and be punished for it. I had plenty of male friends before and very few of them behaved in the way people expected me to. I started to because I had to, I wasn't in a position to argue or bargain when it was contingent on getting HRT. I overdid it like I was expected to. Nobody liked it. Everyone wanted me to chill out and stop acting like a tool.

Then I overdid it in the opposite direction, and ran into some actual tools who capitalized on my unwillingness to behave as one. I then took some time to re-evaluate life and decided I had to be capable of out-tooling the tools without becoming one. I do it for exercise now and then, in places designated for the performance of toolishness, so if and when the enemy come a-knocking I'll be ready and unintimidated.

[JDeere]

I hear men complain about women regarding things like women are just here for us men to use. Or a woman say that the only reason she is with a man is for his money. Or both sexes talk about each others inadequaticies in the bedroom or in their relationship.

I know I am guilty of these things but when I say things it's due to frustration. Mostly done in private.

[Joe Mario]

Great Topic!

I work with the public for decades and constantly hear all kinds of non-PC crap. Big topic.

A small few (older) male patient/customers have nudged me with crude (sexual) comments about women in the office/ store. The first time this happened, it hurt and stunned me. Now, I maintain my professional composure, but look them directly in the eye with what I term- 'polite disgust' to which they have backed off in embarrassment. I can't imagine not reacting with disgust, just in order to blend in with the mainstream.

Unfortunately, there will always be insensitive, rude and ill-mannered people out there. By reacting in a way to convey that the comment isn't cool is our responsibility. I agree with the others that if the circumstances permit, come-backs regarding their mothers, sisters and daughters seem the best way to hold a mirror to their behavior.

I have also sadly witnessed some of the biggest proponents of mysogyny to be cis/het-women. The thought chain is pathetic, right?
Don't get me started...

[Joe Mario]

PS: The article Quintease linked in post #1 said it best with the term;
"weird version of intimacy" men have.

This idea has been in my thoughts for some time now and relates here.
I am growing more convinced that there are (weird, if you will, and hormonally-related) differences in how bio-males share intimacy.
None of which are "pretty" (ehhh, as it were...)

Being on T has given me, admittedly for the first time, a better understanding of why males do (some) of the things they do.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Their being embarrassed and apologetic is not my experience at all. In fact, where I work and have worked on and off for many years (warehouses, hardware stores etc), as well as the previous industry I worked in, the opposite was the case. Men were and are saying disgusting shit to women's faces. It wasn't and isn't something that they go around saying behind women's backs...."

I should have been more clear. The men I work with often say the kind of garden variety, ho-hum misogynist things that are accepted in this society. They save the really hair-raising violent, racist, homophobic rhetoric for the moments when they think they're, uhh, safe. You know- just us guys.

"...Many women don't say shit (or even defend these guys when someone challenges them) when a lot of similar statements as demonstrated in the article are said to them or about other women."

Once again, is there some reason why you're blaming women for men's misogyny?

"The fact that this shit is seen as socially acceptable should be addressed here, imo. When guys say this shit or display unsafe behaviour and a woman or transguy goes to management about it because its repeated frequently and often, management in those industries rarely take it seriously. And that should be the point, imo. That this is not some "shocking and earthshattering discovery" that men supposedly say when women aren't around/behind closed doors, but that men do say it when women are around and that authoritative bodies do not take it seriously. I've been hearing men say shit like this about and to women to women's faces since I was a kid, and particularly since I began working as a teen (having worked most in minimum wage jobs...which is perhaps another issue of in what environment and in front of what status of women men feel they can say and do anything without consequence...because there is no consequence in many of these industries)."

Ender, has it occurred to you that the men who say and have said this shit to you, and in front of you, say worse shit when you're not around? I have no idea what your gender presentation is now, but I'm willing to bet a mortgage payment that they perceived you as a girl when you were younger, and tempered their speech accordingly.


"It's time to stop acting shocked about something we already know is happening every minute of every day, and start taking bigger steps to make sure those with the authoritative power to do something about it start taking this shit seriously and put consequences and appropriate education in place."

Am I shocked? HELL no. I live with this shit daily. Are my friends shocked when I repeat some of it to them? You bet. Because they may be professors, or executives who are more in control of the environments in which they work. As you mentioned, class certainly plays a part in this discussion, but the intersection of class and sexism hasn't been fashionable to discuss for a good, long while. It's worth mentioning that those of my friends who are the most shocked, for instance college professors, are in the best position to influence thought on this subject, but are some of the most underexposed people I know.

"I'm sorry, but it's not for you or anyone else to label other people's bodies nor to tell them what their duty is according to the way you perceive their bodies. Everyone makes their own duty. I think every human being should be calling out misogyny, transphobia, racism, classism, homophobia, ableism and discrimination of any sort...but I would never place a "duty" on someone else's shoulders simply based on my perception of who they are and what I think they have or haven't experience because of the body I perceive them to inhabit or to have inhabited at any given time. You don't solve anything by mislabeling people's bodies and telling them what they should or shouldn't be doing according to their bodies.

If you have a problem with someone holding trans guys to a higher standard when it comes to challenging male misogyny, take it up with the trans guy who wrote the article.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

class certainly plays a part in this discussion, but the intersection of class and sexism hasn't been fashionable to discuss for a good, long while. It's worth mentioning that those of my friends who are the most shocked, for instance college professors, are in the best position to influence thought on this subject, but are some of the most underexposed people I know.

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

in what environment and in front of what status of women men feel they can say and do anything without consequence

The environment and the status of the women involved probably does play a part in the amount of freedom men feel they have to say and do stuff without consequence. I imagine class may have some impact on how sexism and misogyny are expressed as well as to whom it is directed. But it hasn’t any impact on the existence of sexism and misogyny in general. It’s reminiscent of the differences between racism in the north and the south. I’ve heard people comment that they prefer the in your face racism of the south to the some of my best friends are black racism of the north. To me there is nothing redeeming in any ‘ism’, regardless of how it is expressed or the class of the person expressing it. As a matter of fact the more subtle, the more unconscious, the more acceptable the misogyny the more dangerous.

Misogyny and sexism are integral and accepted parts of the fabric of society in general. They are both unconscious and subtle and purposeful and bold. This kind of stuff just is and it’s pretty much accepted, even rewarded. Maybe it’s a relief when someone says something extremely misogynistic and sexist cause that’s easy to see and it might make us feel better cause we think if we can combat this blatant kind of misogyny things will improve. But that is an illusion. Misogyny/sexism is such a fact of life that one would have an easier time getting people to see air.

Perhaps class, status and environment determine the likelihood that men will pull their punches. But that’s just pus icing on a shit cake. Because the truth is this is how human beings have been socialized to treat the female gender and this is how most really feel whether they are comfortable enough to express it or not.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I should have been more clear. The men I work with often say the kind of garden variety, ho-hum misogynist things that are accepted in this society. They save the really hair-raising violent, racist, homophobic rhetoric for the moments when they think they're, uhh, safe. You know- just us guys.

I am not talking about the garden variety, ho-hum misogynist things, I've tried to make clear within both my posts that I am stating that this extreme "hair-raising violent, racist, homophobic rhetoric" is not something men, in my experience, leave for when women aren't around. I hear it said to women's faces every day. Where I work so much disgusting shit gets said to female employees by both fellow empoyees and customers, it's not even funny. Management doesn't give a shit (just as they don't give a shit when a customer uses the N-word or is excessively racist towards an employee...nothing is done, customer is not asked to leave, all the company wants is money and they couldn't care less how you treat employees). I've heard guys talk about women as nature's punching bag to women's faces, pedophilia jokes get made galore, rape jokes. We had a poster up that was a "name a paint colour" for the paint section of our store. The colour on the poster was purple and some nightcrew ass, for the jollies, decided to suggest "black eye" as the name of the colour..."cause the bitch didn't listen." I had to be the one to go scratch the whole thing out because every time I passed it I was a step closer to kicking the shit out of the guy. Not a thing was said by management or most anyone. "Just vandalism."

I've heard all kinds rape shit, objectification of women of colour and any nasty thing you can think of that I've heard while I'm among guys said to women. What I'm saying is that these extreme things that some see as "shocking," as "something that men say when women aren't around," is in my experience something they do say when women are around.

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Once again, is there some reason why you're blaming women for men's misogyny?

I'm not attempting to blame women at all. I don't understand why you're saying "once again." I've done exactly the opposite, or at least that has been the entire insane driving force behind every single one of my posts in this thread. To show the consequences of misogyny and that this isn't some hidden side of men. The portion of my post you snipped is taken out of context, and context is 100% relevant to what I'm trying to say here. Here is the entirety of it.

Their being embarrassed and apologetic is not my experience at all. In fact, where I work and have worked on and off for many years (warehouses, hardware stores etc), as well as the previous industry I worked in, the opposite was the case. Men were and are saying disgusting shit to women's faces. It wasn't and isn't something that they go around saying behind women's backs. It happens in both environments, whether women are present or not. When this shit happens in the work place, it's also management that needs to change. Many women don't say shit (or even defend these guys when someone challenges them) when a lot of similar statements as demonstrated in the article are said to them or about other women.

The fact that this shit is seen as socially acceptable should be addressed here, imo. When guys say this shit or display unsafe behaviour and a woman or transguy goes to management about it because its repeated frequently and often, management in those industries rarely take it seriously. And that should be the point, imo. That this is not some "shocking and earthshattering discovery" that men supposedly say when women aren't around/behind closed doors, but that men do say it when women are around and that authoritative bodies do not take it seriously. I've been hearing men say shit like this about and to women to women's faces since I was a kid, and particularly since I began working as a teen (having worked most in minimum wage jobs...which is perhaps another issue of in what environment and in front of what status of women men feel they can say and do anything without consequence...because there is no consequence in many of these industries). It's time to stop acting shocked about something we already know is happening every minute of every day, and start taking bigger steps to make sure those with the authoritative power to do something about it start taking this shit seriously and put consequences and appropriate education in place.

The bolded bit especially is a part of a single train of thought. When I talk about women not saying shit about the misogynist and horrendous bullshit that are said to their faces in the work place, when I'm talking about some women even going as far as to defend some of these asshats, I'm talking about the consequences of misogyny. Women often don't report this kind of brutal language used in the work place for a number of reasons. They don't report it because they've been conditioned to believe that what these men are saying is, on some level, true. They might not report it because they've been conditioned to believe these men have a right to "free speech," and therefore the right to verbally abuse women. They might be intimidated or frightened. They might not want to make waves in t he workplace. Or they simply might realise that management won't do shit, because they've been in that situation before.

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Ender, has it occurred to you that the men who say and have said this shit to you, and in front of you, say worse shit when you're not around? I have no idea what your gender presentation is now, but I'm willing to bet a mortgage payment that they perceived you as a girl when you were younger, and tempered their speech accordingly.

I was talking about hearing men say things to women, specifically. I stated that I have heard men saying these things to women's faces for ages, and especially at my job. I've had friends born into extremely poor neighbourhoods who have also talked about little to no inhibition as far as the language used to discuss women in front of women. It's about me being able to compare what men say to women's faces and what they "say behind women's backs," and I really haven't seen a massive difference even in situations where they didn't realise I was trans. What I was getting at when I was saying that management, for example, don't give a shit when a woman or even a transguy who is openly trans says something is also my commentary on the notion that transguys somehow have the power to change men's attitudes. Many of us really don't if we don't want to live "stealth." The first post I wrote in this thread was more focusing on that, but this also touches on it. I live quite openly as a transguy because being open is important to me so that society stops thinking that there are only two sexes and two ways of being male/female. Cis people aren't the be all and end all, and transmen aren't "once woman/female" and transwomen aren't "once men/male" unless stated specifically by that trans person. But being openly trans has its pitfalls when challenging misogyny among men and is rarely if ever successful among straight cis men. Even when I'm not in an environment where I'm openly trans, if you become known as the guy who challenges misogyny, I've also noticed that the conversation while you're around becomes extremely reserved over time...which has less to do with sex or gender, and more to do with avoidance. At least in my experience.

It's almost expected that men are going to be crude and violent in the construction industry. And that's what I'm talking about when I'm talking about socially-accepted verbal violence towards women. Maybe if I were sitting at some cocktail party with a bunch of cigar-smoking rich corporate white guys I'd have a different experience. But that isn't my experience, and I'd guess that probably isn't most people's experiences, or at least most people I know.

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Am I shocked? HELL no. I live with this shit daily. Are my friends shocked when I repeat some of it to them? You bet. Because they may be professors, or executives who are more in control of the environments in which they work. As you mentioned, class certainly plays a part in this discussion, but the intersection of class and sexism hasn't been fashionable to discuss for a good, long while. It's worth mentioning that those of my friends who are the most shocked, for instance college professors, are in the best position to influence thought on this subject, but are some of the most underexposed people I know.

I agree, but I still think the intersection of class and sexism, just as with racism, is a huge part of the discussion, though. It cannot be left out. It's the same reason upper middle class white men still are more likely to be verbally abusive and crude toward a sex worker, minimum wage worker or any woman of colour than a middle or upper class white woman. They may be all sugar and spice in front of their wife or girlfriend (who is also likely white and middle or upper class), but remove her from the equation and you'll see what they're really like. Not as much reservation occurs in front of women who aren't of that class/race combo. We can't ignore that. So when we have a topic that says "what men say about women when they aren't around," then maybe we should consider renaming it to "what men say about women when white middle or upper class women aren't around." In that case the discussion cannot only be about misogyny, but about a specific type of misogyny that is strongly related to race, class and ability. And as for the transguys writing the article...I also wonder what they're class and race are and how that affects their experience and the difference they claim to have noticed.

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

If you have a problem with someone holding trans guys to a higher standard when it comes to challenging male misogyny, take it up with the trans guy who wrote the article.

The author writes at the end:

In almost all the examples above, I was too cowardly to speak up against the offending commenters. I was scared of outing myself as trans, and also scared of how these men would react if I rejected what I think amounts to a bizarro form of hospitality - an invitation into the clubhouse.

That's not ok, and this is my commitment to change my behavior. We all need to make a commitment not to tacitly condone these private oppressive rituals of maleness, whether as trans men, as cis-men, as women, and everyone else. Yes, I have roots as a female-bodied and female-identified person, but you don't need to have history as a woman to respect women.

Unlike the author, I don't consider myself to ever have been a female-bodied or female-identified person. Society's perception is another, and if anything I can only talk about what it is like to be perceived by society a certain way. That being said, that doesn't change my commitment. I've been called a "PC/lefty crusader" far too many times and this entire subject is one that enrages me beyond belief. Do I wish that everyone were committed to ending oppression? Yes...but not once will I claim to that anyone has some kind of inherent or absolute duty, and certainly I will never make an assumption about another trans person's body, their body's history and place a "duty" upon their bodies. Assumptions about trans people's bodies should never have a place, just as misogyny should never have a place no matter the discussion.

Anyways, back on to the original topic, aishah's post perhaps says what I've been trying to get at better than I have:

Originally Posted by aishah

as a sex worker, i haven't actually experienced men talking much about their significant others (oddly enough). the worst thing most men say about their significant others to me is that they wish their significant other looked like me, or looked different, or was more adventurous in bed. i have experienced them talking badly about me behind my back and to my face, but the difference is that i am not at their mercy as i would be in a regular job, so i can just refuse to have them as a client (and sometimes blacklist them to other sex workers).

i get that the article is about what men say when women aren't around...i just (as ender and others have pointed out) am not sure this is necessarily a "hidden" side of men, since many of them are perfectly comfortable saying things like this when we ARE around. perhaps for some women it's a surprise but to most women i know it wouldn't be a surprise because men have said these things to our face.

That's pretty much it. I don't see it as a "hidden side" of men, either. It's only hidden if you're of a certain privileged class/race combination, and that shouldn't always be assumed as the common experience.

[Bad_boi]

To be honest I haven't heard too many negative things from most other guys. I hear the occasional complaints about how women are confusing or things their girlfriends do that annoy them.

There was only one instance that ever bothered me-

When I was about 20 I was on a bus. I was with a friend who was a little younger than me on the bus. She decided to start poking me and teasing me so I reacted by tickling her side to get her to stop. She let out a scream and then we both burst into laughter.

She ended up getting off the bus and this weird guy came up to me. He was mabey about 30. He asked me if she was my girlfriend and I said no. He went on a tirade about how women could get away with anything. It really creeped me out. I pretended to listen because I felt legitimately threatened by this man. I assume from the way he talked to me he assumed I was a 15 year old boy. Which sickened me to be honest.

After his tirade about women he started a tirade about god. He asked me if I was christian. At this point I was getting kind of pissed off. I firmly said no. Got up and sat next to the driver till I had to get off the bus. I was really glad he didn't get off at the stop I got off at.