Opinions

[The_Lady_Snow]

I specifically started the thread because we ALL have different opinions on what's going on politically with "gay marriage" being a focus. We all aren't going to be shaking our head yes yes yes, some will stop think others may not.

The article I posted has some things I agree with others not, it certainly is nor has my opinion been stated by whining, shredding Obama apart or demonizing the marriage thing.

I expected different views and opinions with some being agreeable some not. It's not a pick a camp thread I'd hoped it could should be a conversation that could be civilly had knowing not everyone has to or will agree.


Opinions are just that, opinions

[The_Lady_Snow]

PS

I also agree strongly Toughy, religious hands are way to deep in the government cookie jar but that's a whole other thread and a whole other brain aneurism

[Gráinne]

I personally believe that one day, hopefully soon, gay marriage will be on the national level. It wasn't that long ago, in my lifetime actually, in which whites and minorities (not just African-Americans) could not marry. One by one, the anti-miscegenation laws were struck down until 1967. Then as now, it was the Deep South who were the last to get rid of them. Gay marriage will do the same.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by guihong

I personally believe that one day, hopefully soon, gay marriage will be on the national level. It wasn't that long ago, in my lifetime actually, in which whites and minorities (not just African-Americans) could not marry. One by one, the anti-miscegenation laws were struck down until 1967. Then as now, it was the Deep South who were the last to get rid of them. Gay marriage will do the same.

The Zealots don't share this viewpoint, they see interracial marriage being accepted finally as "natural" between man and woman. The Christian Nation is defending the sanctity of natural marriage what we do according to them is against scripture. Churches are SCREAMING in anger that Obama is betraying Christian law.


A law that has no business in Government buy I'm telling ya that's a whole other thread about us (queers) and Zealotry running this nation.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I'd hoped it could should be a conversation that could be civilly had knowing not everyone has to or will agree.

Yes, and as with basic human rights equitably assured for all, it is certainly something we can hopefully achieve.

[Sachita]

I don't need someone's approval or acceptance about who I love or fuck. If it was illegal, lets face it in some places it is, I would have to be more careful. As a human being I want the same rights as everyone else, of course, however having lived in this USA I can't support any government venues. The whole thing with marriage, paperwork, etc is a big turn off to me. I understand equality but if you think about we have never ever been treated equal and as women we may not see that day in our lifetime. I also feel like its a sell out on their part and although I think Obama is a fucking great president I don't trust any of them.

I don't need legal marriage to show my love and devotion.

[Sparkle]

I am finding some of the posts in this thread disturbing and a bit mind boggling because it seems that the message is: if you're not exclusively cheerleading Obama in response to his announcement then you're a naysayer and a nitpicker and a parade-pee'er.

What is wrong with looking critically at the Presidents' actions and words?

I think Obama is a fantastic President. I admire him. On some issues I don't agree with the choices his administration has made. On other issues I am 100% behind him. I consider his bravery and progressiveness in relation to the LGBT rights groundbreaking, but let us be honest, the bar wasn't set very high (in terms of presidential support for equality). I think Obama publicly supporting gay marriage is amazing, unexpected and quite possibly political suicide.

I voted for Obama once and I will vote for him again, he already had my vote prior to his announcement and despite my critical view of his administration.

And I strongly agree with the posts of aishah and julieisafemme (and a few others), I believe we must CONTINUE to take a critical view of all of our political leaders. I believe we must keep our eye on the big picture, which includes a number of different legal rights, not just marriage.

I believe that "gay marriage" is one piece of the pie when it comes to LGBT rights. It is potentially a large piece of the pie IF (and only if) DOMA is repealed and legislation happens on a federal level.

While DOMA exists, marriage equality does not.
As an aside, I far prefer the phrase/term "marriage equality" to "gay marriage" which sounds a whole lot like "special rights" to me.

I live in Massachusetts, I've had the legal right to marry for years. I'm very proud of my state and grateful for the rights it affords me and very-very-very aware of the rights my state has no ability to give me (federal rights). I expatriated for this reason. I continue to funnel my resources in to immigration equality because my lack of rights impacted me so deeply.

Meanwhile...there are so many other pieces of the pie to be advocated for, to be fought for and to be won. And Obama saying he supports gay marriage, while a wonderful endorsement, does not equal legal change on any front.

It really bothers me that taking a critical view, not only of Obama's announcement but also the actual and potential legal and political ramifications of the announcement (or the lack there of) is labeled "picking apart" the President!

I celebrate Obama's announcement, I tip my hat, I salute him, I throw a virtual ticker tape parade for his announcement.

And I want more - I want full legal parity.
I want my basic human and civil rights. Full stop.

And I will not stop taking a critical view.
I hope, when the virtual confetti is swept off the virtual streets, the rest of our community won't either.

[BullDog]

Hmm well I am not some mindless cheerleader.

Those taking a "critical view" - what exactly is it that you want? What should be done differently?

I believe in riding momentum for all of it's worth rather than sitting around and criticizing. I think we have a better chance of positive change with that type of strategy. That's just me.

I think everyone is well aware that same sex marriage is not the only important issue in this world.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Hmm well I am not some mindless cheerleader.

Those taking a "critical view" - what exactly is it that you want? What should be done differently?

I believe in riding momentum for all of it's worth rather than sitting around and criticizing. I think we have a better chance of positive change with that type of strategy. That's just me.

I think everyone is well aware that same sex marriage is not the only important issue in this world.

Perhaps we have different views of the language I used...

I think taking a 'critical view' and 'criticizing' are wildly different, in connotation and denotation.

Taking a critical view is saying: "I'm proud of my president AND I'm really concerned about how marriage equality can be achieved while DOMA continues to exist? how do we move forward from here? what are the next steps? how can we capitalize on this endorsement?"

criticizing is saying: "our president sucks, he should have said this 4 years ago, this is all motivated to win more votes, he's disingenuous, he doesn't care about us and I think his tie was really ugly."

[BullDog]

Yes how can we capitalize on the momentum- I believe that is something many people could agree on. I do think those of us who find the President's announcement to be a positive thing are quite aware there is much more work to be done. I think President Obama is aware of that as well.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes how can we capitalize on the momentum- I believe that is something many people could agree on. I do think those of us who find the President's announcement to be a positive thing are quite aware there is much more work to be done. I think President Obama is aware of that as well.

I agree that the President is aware of that as well.

And the part I bolded, that is what I am responding to - I haven't seen anyone in this thread who has not said they think "Obama's announcement is a positive thing". And that is why it bothers me that people posting views in this thread that go beyond unequivocal cheerleading have been labeled as "picking apart" and diversive.

Pretty much everyone (in this thread and that I personally know) thinks Obama's announcement was a great thing and that it has very positive cultural and political ramifications AND some posters continue to analyze the political climate, the legal status of LGBT rights and continue discussing a strategy for leveraging that endorsement in to legal change. And doing so does not take away from the awesomeness of Obama's public announcement.

[Kätzchen]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

And I want more - I want full legal parity.
I want my basic human and civil rights. Full stop.

*best strand of thought, ever.*

Thank you Sparkle for articulating your point of view with clarity.

~D

ps/ when I am feeling better, I will come back in participate more fully in this particular conversation/subject.

[aishah]

i agree with sparkle. and many others.

i don't understand why what i said earlier seems to have been so unclear, but...

* i am not against gay marriage. i am very much for it, as i stated over and over and over again. i think it will help many people.
* yes, it's true all kinds of people get married, not just middle class people. (though in my experience marriage tends to be less of an ideal choice for poor people of color, but that's neither here nor there to what i was saying earlier.)
* i think it's cool obama came out in support of gay marriage. i don't trust him (or any politician), but i voted for him and i probably will again. i suspect it was an election stunt, but honestly that's also neither here nor there.
* the response to what obama has said has been overwhelming, and while his words carry some weight, they don't actually make concrete change for us right now. i'm not sure they ever will. i hope they will. but the fact remains that (as julie and others have pointed out also) he is treating it as a states' rights issue and does not see it as a federal civil rights issue. so despite his support, even he still believes we should be treated as separate and unequal.

here's where i seem to have lost some folks.

* i have a problem with the fact that the mainstream lgbtq rights movement has turned itself into a single issue movement - gay marriage.
* the frustration i most deeply have with this is that every time a politician says something about this issue, or the mainstream media prints something about this issue, i am painfully and deeply reminded that this is almost the only issue that gets any attention in the mainstream. other issues that disproportionately affect working class and poor queers of color, disabled queers, and other marginalized folks get very little attention. passing gay marriage will not fix these other issues. at the same time, most straight folks i know don't even know these issues exist because all that they hear about is gay marriage.
* obama won't ever talk about these other issues, like incarceration and murder of trans* women of color. the nyt isn't about to put it on the front page. because the mainstream lgbtq community barely pays it any attention to begin with, so why should the rest of the world? i'm not frustrated because i disagree with gay marriage, but because i disagree with the way we've made gay marriage the ONLY issue. bulldog asked what i would change...that's something i would change. i wish that the big lgbtq organizations talked deeply and critically about other issues besides gay marriage. i wish that we brought other issues to the attention of the media and politicians.

and here's where i apparently REALLY lost some people...

* gay marriage does not mean equality, and passing gay marriage laws does not mean we will all be "mainstreamed" and "normalized." these laws extend a few more rights to monogamous same-sex couples, but as we've seen with the war on women and many other situations, those rights can easily be ignored and taken away. as can any other legal rights we get. that doesn't mean we shouldn't seek for them, but personally i don't feel that that's the ONLY thing we should focus on because it's so tenuous. often the most marginalized among us are the first ones to have those legal protections violated.
* our society is fundamentally unequal, and as i pointed out in post 49, the attempts to push the idea of a "normalized" gay person has set up the dichotomy of "good queers" (those who are most easily able to conform to a heteronormative society, to the best of their ability, usually but not always middle/upper class white gays and lesbians)/"bad queers" (the rest of us). this is not directly relevant to marriage in and of itself, however it is relevant to the mainstream lgbtq movement's attempts to say "we're just like (middle/upper class white) straight families" and the fact that the rest of us frequently get told we are making queers look bad. because of what i posted in post 49, i don't think being mainstreamed or normalized is a helpful goal - it just reifies the existing oppressive structures in our society.

it boils down to the fact that i believe our movements have the capacity to actually be inclusive of all of us, including the most marginalized, and the issues that disproportionately affect us. and that in the history of civil rights movements, the argument of "just wait til we get x law passed and then we'll care about other issues that affect you" never actually ends up happening. the mainstream movement gets its single issue passed and everyone else is still stuck in the shadows with no funding and no coverage. i think gay marriage is awesome, i think people supporting it is great, but it's not the only or the most immediately pressing issue for many of us.

i don't care if you agree with me, but i'd appreciate it if you at least consider what i am saying without misrepresenting what i am saying. (or just ignore it. whatever floats your boat.) nowhere have i said that i don't agree with gay marriage or don't support what obama said. and people of all ages agree and disagree with what i've said...it is not an age issue.

normally i wouldn't have posted in a gay marriage thread at all, because i can see the backlash coming from a mile away, but i felt some of the issues i brought up were relevant to the article snow posted (which was not unquestioningly applauding obama's announcement). if it had been a "yay obama supports gay marriage" thread i would have walked on by. just as i have walked on by the news about gay marriage and other threads. i thought this thread was to critically discuss the implications of this issue, not to unquestioningly all agree that obama is wonderful and anyone who doesn't think he is is a mean person who's setting the movement back.

[BullDog]

aishah, you didn't lose me. I get that you are frustrated and that you think there are other issues that don't get addressed. How do you think things should move forward?

Obama's public support of same sex marriage doesn't address other issues. True statement. If Obama came out in support of rights for trans sexed people it wouldn't necessarily address same sex marriage. It wasn't an all encompassing statement. You're right it doesn't cover everyone. The Civil Rights Act really didn't cover me either, but I am very happy for the movement and the laws that have been passed.

I am 50 years old and never thought I would see the day when a President of the United States would acknowledge us in ways that President Obama has. It does mean a lot to me and it seems to me it would be politically smart to rally behind it more. That is my opinion. Not everyone has to be rah rah cheerleader, but this is an historic moment. I am frustrated by queers too. I guess just in different ways.

I think it's funny that people are suspicious that this is politically motivated. Well if it is we should be pumping our fists that we have that much political power, lol. If not, maybe President Obama really has evolved. Or maybe they've carefully calculated things and are reasonably sure according to the polls that it won't hurt Obama and so now he can say it publicly.

Seriously whatever the reason, the President of the United States said something supportive. We are actually mentioned and supported in the Democratic Party's Platform. The Republican Party's Platform specifically states in several places that they are against same sex marriage and will actively work to legislate. Is the Democratic Party perfect? Absolutely not, but when people go around talking about mistrusting all politicians it seriously makes my head spin. There are huge differences between the political parties.

I am frustrated aishah that you continue to align marriage with white, middle class. I am white and middle class. I don't want to have the right to have a legal marriage so that I can be heteronormative and live out someone's fantasy of the "good lesbian next door." I want to have the rights because I love my partner and I want to make sure we have all the legal protections that heterosexual married couples do. People of all races and classes marry.

Heterosexual as well as queer singles and polyamorous people are left out of some of the same legal protections that married couples receive. I get that. There is more than one issue that needs to be addressed. It's also true that it is not always financial advantageous to be married. If you are queer or an unmarried heterosexual partner you aren't legally responsible for your partner's debts and taxes. If you are legally married then you are.

[aishah]

thanks, bulldog i feel like we tend to agree on most things here.

i did not align marriage with white and middle class. i aligned the mainstream lgbtq movement with white and middle class. it's something of a coincidence that the single issue there is marriage - that does not mean that marriage isn't important to other folks. the distinction i'm trying to make is that the rest of us have other issues that disproportionately affect us, but don't necessarily affect the face of the mainstream lgbtq movement (which is mainly white and middle class), and that's why (it seems to me anyway) that our issues are not considered as important.

i'm grateful for obama's statement. i know it was not meant to address other issues - i didn't expect it to. i'm just frustrated that he will NEVER address other issues because the mainstream lgbtq movement has ignored those other issues. for example, i don't see obama coming out and saying something about the recent murders of trans* women of color in the bay area the way he did about gay marriage.

i do understand and respect that in this particular instance that would have been a tangent. i'm looking at the bigger picture - what are we doing in our movement that is causing this situation where other urgent issues aren't being covered in mainstream media and by politicians? and the answer to that, to my understanding, is the single-pointed focus on gay marriage. that doesn't mean that in this particular instance i don't think it's great that obama came out (sort of, as a states' rights issue) in support of gay marriage. it's just - if we look at the larger picture of media and political coverage - could our movements be more inclusive? i hope so.

i can't apologize for mistrusting all politicians, unforunately. given the oppressive structure of our systems, and the corruptive weight of lobbying interests and other issues.... well. i have trust issues out the wazoo anyway i'm glad i voted for obama. originally it was a last minute decision out of fear for safety, given the violent islamophobic tension in the last election, but this time i will be voting for him with eyes wide open. he's the best option we have. i just...have too much faith in people to settle for the idea that our current way of doing things is the only way. like sparkle said, i want my basic human and civil rights. full stop.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by aishah

... i suspect it was an election stunt...

...so despite his support, even he still believes we should be treated as separate and unequal...

... these laws extend a few more rights to monogamous same-sex couples...

... the attempts to push the idea of a "normalized" gay person has set up the dichotomy of "good queers" (those who are most easily able to conform to a heteronormative society, to the best of their ability, usually but not always middle/upper class white gays and lesbians)/"bad queers" (the rest of us)....
.

Apologies for cutting up your post. I pulled out some quotes that I wanted to directly address.

Election stunt? Do you seriously think that Obama thinks he's going to gain votes from anywhere with his statement of support? He already had the gay and liberal vote. He almost certainly lost some centrist votes, and energised the evangelicals who are lukewarm about the Mormon candidate, but white hot about denying us full civil rights. All the indicators are that this WILL hurt him at the ballot box. Apparently, Obama had come to his decision a month or more ago, and decided to announce his position prior to the Dem convention to avoid a divisive floor fight during the convention. The CW on this is that it would have been far better for his campaign if he had waited until after the election.

"Seperate but unequal" would have been Obama's previous position in favour of civil unions. Supporting marriage equality means equality. Period. Yes, I would have been far more impressed had he not said he thought it was a states' right's issue. On the other hand, he's laying the groundwork for the repeal of DOMA. The reality is that once DOMA is repealed, states will no longer have the ability to discriminate against a person who has been legally wed in another state.

Why on earth do you assume that marriage means monogamy? I have never been monogamous, nor would I become monogamous if I were to marry. Many married couples are non-monogamous, and I don't mean cheaters. The government can't legislate monogamy, and frankly doesn't care to despite the efforts of all the, (probably cheating), tea baggers. Additionally, when you assert that marriage equality only provides "a few more rights", you expose tremendous ignorance about the real legal ramifications of marriage, which is odd when you're so passionate about this subject. There are more than 1,100 specific rights and privileges granted to legal spouses. For someone so invested in the welfare of poor people you seem to be willfully ignoring the plight of lgbt elders who are, on average, far poorer than their straight counterparts because they are denied their deceased partner's social security benefits. This is a very serious hardship since many poor people rely on social security as their sole support in old age.

I'm an avowed pervert, non-monogamous biker leatherdyke, hippie artist. I just went out to look at a pro dungeon where the Lesbian Sex Mafia might decide to throw our Leather Pride party, which I am organising. There is not a soul in my community who suspects that I may be "normalized", or a "good queer". This pervert is just as happy about the prospect of full marriage equality as I am about the advancement of any other major civil rights issue. And I'm that much happier because many people that I care about stand to gain more than 1,100 specific benefits when their relationships are recognised as equal. Oh, and many of those friends are not white or middle class. It would be OK to care about their wellbeing even if they were, though.

[aishah]

to me, states' rights issue essentially means separate but unequal. either they are rights we should have or they are not. if you look at the civil rights movement, in terms of laws actually being enforced, people's rights were not ensured until it was treated as a federal issue.

too tired to deal with the rest right now - bed night.