Christians apologizing

[Quintease]

I didn't realise he'd admitted it was a hoax

I knew there were a lot of questions and queries about his actions, particularly since his church was rumoured to support conversion therapy. What a tosser.

[Miss Scarlett]

It's a shame this was a hoax and even sadder that it's not and won't be the only one resorting to such tactics...

At Pride Charlotte 2007 a group was handing out silicon bracelets in Pride colors...people were snapping them up until it was discovered (and announced from the stage) that the seemingly friendly folks handing them out were members of one of the uglier protest groups and inside the bracelet was the address for a hate filled anti-LGBT web site where the main message was how we were all going to burn in hell...

[Ciaran]

Assuming it had not been a hoax (and, even if it was, there are similar examples of Christians apologising for homophobia and bigotry in the name of their religion), I actually am not in favour of it.

In fact, I am strongly against this type of apology.

Rather, in my mind, an apology needs to be personal. I am a Roman Catholic but I do not believe that I have the power or the authority to apologise on behalf of that Church to the many people it has, and continues to, hurt. Similarly, I don't see how others can apologise for the actions of their wider communities either.

Maybe it's just a semantics point but, to me, it is important.

With that said, I am wholly supportive of those religious folk, esp. those who are "straight" who are unambiguously in favour of equal rights for LGBT peoples and, more personally, who welcome LGBT people into their faith communities. Furthermore, those who are LGBT and practitioners of faith can play a powerful role in hopefully ensuring any future hurt caused by churches in the name of God is minimised.

Yesterday, I attended a one-day workshop here in London for LGBT Roman Catholics. It was tremendously powerful, if sometimes difficult, for me, esp. as my intuitive Roman Catholic faith tends to be on the more reactionary and judgemental side. I don't do Pride but a visible Roman Catholic community will be marching at London Pride (www.sohomasses.com) - whilst I won't be marching, I did however buy one of the t-shirts that they will be wearing on the march. It's a simply design of a cross and the words, "Nobody knows I'm Catholic".

[Toughy]

http://www.themarinfoundation.org/

that is the website for this guy.....apparently they are scheduled for another appearance at Chicago Pride...........it's in the 'current events' drop down...

the part that is a hoax is that he is supportive of us

[yotlyolqualli]

I don't think that the GLBT community inundating church's would do anything but cause more chaos, more distrust and stronger anti- homosexual feelings.

There ARE church's out there who are GLBT friendly and inclusive. When I left the Mennonite church, I left because I no longer believed the same way they did.

A church, not a religion or a faith, but a church, is founded on like mindedness. Most church's are governed by a constitution, or a written sometimes unwritten, creed of idealogies, rules, dogma and doctrine. I tend to think of church's as a "club". Just as each club has it's own sets of standards and rules, so do church's. Just like in a club, if a club member did something totally against the rules, OR no longer felt the want or need to follow club rules, they would either leave on their own, or be kicked out.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all. Many Christians don't believe that homosexuality is right. They think it's a one way ticket to hell, and you know what? It is perfectly OK for them to think that. What makes that attitude NOT ok, is when they try and legislate their idealogies and doctrine and belief, on those who do not believe the same way.

If we inundated the "unfriendly" and non-inclusive church's, we are doing what they are doing to us; trying to force our own idealogies and beliefs on them.

I feel that us doing that to them, would be as equally wrong as what they are doing to us.

Just my own thoughts.

[Miss Scarlett]

Originally Posted by yotlyolqualli

If we inundated the "unfriendly" and non-inclusive church's, we are doing what they are doing to us; trying to force our own idealogies and beliefs on them.

I feel that us doing that to them, would be as equally wrong as what they are doing to us.

Just my own thoughts.

Exactly...as my Grandmother used to say "Two wrongs do not make a right."

Back when i was on our Pride Committee we had countless discussions about how to deal with the protest groups and we decided that acting in a like manner made us no better than them and in fact only fed their "cause."

Since everyone was welcome to our festival they were no exception. We even offered them water if they looked as though the heat was getting to them...oddly enough we had no takers.

Near the end of our 2007 festival a transient gentleman wandered in to the event. It was obvious he'd been living outdoors and was carrying what appeared to be his worldy possessions. He just wandered in and sat down on the curb...the church members protesting clearly avoided him. But a large number of LBGT folks at the event did not. They spoke to him, made sure he had plenty to eat & drink, shared their cigarettes and welcomed him without hesitation. At the end of the event i had a chance to talk to him and he said he could tell that we we (our community) were good people and truly cared about others because of the way he was treated. Made me wonder how many of those protesting us would have treated him the same way had he wandered into one if their services or events...

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by yotlyolqualli

If we inundated the "unfriendly" and non-inclusive church's, we are doing what they are doing to us; trying to force our own idealogies and beliefs on them.

I feel that us doing that to them, would be as equally wrong as what they are doing to us.

totally not what i said

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

What if we had a big gay meeting and decided we were all going to google the church closest to our zip code and just start showing up?

You wouldn't have to be disrespectful or disruptive. You wouldn't even have to announce your presence.

[Nadeest]

An apology is one thing; but..... it can also be completely meaningless. How many people have we known that have apologized for their actions and yet did the same exact thing, later on?

I appreciate sincere apologies, but I also expect their actions to match their words, for that apology to mean anything to me. When they start taking actions to ensure that they never do that again, and are attempting to make amends for the wrong that they have done, THEN I am impressed, but not until then.

[princessbelle]

I've read through this thread and maybe i'm just not getting it tonight or i'm just way too tired.

But, why in the hell would anyone expect or want an apology from any church or organization or committee or group of anything in the first place?

From my point of view there isn't "one" singular type of person or place or institution that is responsible for our lack of rights and how we are treated on a day to day basis. It is people in general who have voted or not voted, whispered and criticized, ridiculed, beaten, screamed, spit, maimed and killed our family members in our LGBT community. Not a secular or specific person, people or place.

I realize that some parts of religion and some Christian history has played a big part in that. But, it's not the whole ball of wax. There are many LGBT churches. One group cannot take all of the blame and then overnight rectify what how we have been treated all over the world for centuries.

I would be way happier to see "We support you" or "We believe in the same God, come visit our church, you are welcome". But, apology? No, that's just silly to me.

[Gentle Tiger]

One of the most humbling/honoring experiences I ever experienced was during my seminary life when a Professor apologized to me for all of the bigotry/racism he practiced against black people in the name of Christianity. He apologized not only for his actions but for those who claimed to represent Christ who had done inhumane things against others simply because they were black. I won't go into all of the details but it was a powerful moment for both of us. I know I'm an odd duck but this meant something to me and got me thinking about a lot of things. And this moment was one of many that changed my life.

Do I think that folks should just flippantly stand around on corners saying, I'm sorry for all the idiotic, foolish, condemning words and deeds ever done against our community? No. But do I think that churches who have been silent on the issue need to come forward and speak out against the hatred that has been voiced? Yes I do. Do I think that Pastors in the mainstream religions need to step forward and acknowledge the damage that has been done to many because of the message and exclusion that has been done? Yes I do.

Again, maybe it's because of the number of people I speak with. But the willingness to do this accompanied by actions that support the words do go a long way for some. I see the apology as saying we are sorry for what you have experienced. We are sorry that you have been treated like a second class citizen. We are sorry that people have misrepresented our faith. We are sorry for <fill in the blank>. There are several ways to express this and demonstrate this. For some this would be an excellent catalyst in facilitating spiritual healing.

Just my thoughts.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Assuming it had not been a hoax (and, even if it was, there are similar examples of Christians apologising for homophobia and bigotry in the name of their religion), I actually am not in favour of it.

In fact, I am strongly against this type of apology.

Rather, in my mind, an apology needs to be personal. I am a Roman Catholic but I do not believe that I have the power or the authority to apologise on behalf of that Church to the many people it has, and continues to, hurt. Similarly, I don't see how others can apologise for the actions of their wider communities either.

Maybe it's just a semantics point but, to me, it is important.

With that said, I am wholly supportive of those religious folk, esp. those who are "straight" who are unambiguously in favour of equal rights for LGBT peoples and, more personally, who welcome LGBT people into their faith communities. Furthermore, those who are LGBT and practitioners of faith can play a powerful role in hopefully ensuring any future hurt caused by churches in the name of God is minimised.

Yesterday, I attended a one-day workshop here in London for LGBT Roman Catholics. It was tremendously powerful, if sometimes difficult, for me, esp. as my intuitive Roman Catholic faith tends to be on the more reactionary and judgemental side. I don't do Pride but a visible Roman Catholic community will be marching at London Pride (www.sohomasses.com) - whilst I won't be marching, I did however buy one of the t-shirts that they will be wearing on the march. It's a simply design of a cross and the words, "Nobody knows I'm Catholic".

As far as I can tell, many of these apologies are coming from the point of view of "love the sinner, hate the sin." It will take a re-thinking of a religion's belief and interpretation of sin to change this view.

I really liked what you said about a few apologizing for what "they did." It got me thinking (along with some comments on the initial post) about personal responsibility for your own misguided beliefs. It's almost a cop-out to apologize for what "they" (in the name of your religion) did.

Another poster mentioned the bracelets, and that is so heinous. There's no words for that crap. And it buries and overshadows many good people of faith that are coming from an honest place on this issue. It makes the distrust even greater.

[blush]

Originally Posted by yotlyolqualli

I don't think that the GLBT community inundating church's would do anything but cause more chaos, more distrust and stronger anti- homosexual feelings.

There ARE church's out there who are GLBT friendly and inclusive. When I left the Mennonite church, I left because I no longer believed the same way they did.

A church, not a religion or a faith, but a church, is founded on like mindedness. Most church's are governed by a constitution, or a written sometimes unwritten, creed of idealogies, rules, dogma and doctrine. I tend to think of church's as a "club". Just as each club has it's own sets of standards and rules, so do church's. Just like in a club, if a club member did something totally against the rules, OR no longer felt the want or need to follow club rules, they would either leave on their own, or be kicked out.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all. Many Christians don't believe that homosexuality is right. They think it's a one way ticket to hell, and you know what? It is perfectly OK for them to think that. What makes that attitude NOT ok, is when they try and legislate their idealogies and doctrine and belief, on those who do not believe the same way.

If we inundated the "unfriendly" and non-inclusive church's, we are doing what they are doing to us; trying to force our own idealogies and beliefs on them.

I feel that us doing that to them, would be as equally wrong as what they are doing to us.

Just my own thoughts.

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

I have always thought that the fastest way to "win" this "fight" would be through the Church.

We have a valid argument in the separation of church and state and how we shouldn't have to make a religious argument for our rights, and that is absolutely correct and I am sure it will work eventually, but....

imagine if every church was gay in the same proportions that the population is gay. If ten percent of every congregation was respectfully, but openly gay.

What if we had a big gay meeting and decided we were all going to google the church closest to our zip code and just start showing up?

You wouldn't have to be disrespectful or disruptive. You wouldn't even have to announce your presence. When new people show up the church folks get ALL up in your business and the first question is "are you married?"

I bet the whole thing would be over in a year.

Now, the obvious question is "are you putting your money where your mouth is, Jenny? Shouldn't you be on your way to Faith United Methodist right now?"

Heck, no. The whole idea terrifies me.

But, still. I bet it would work.

Originally Posted by yotlyolqualli

I am all for respectful protesting. I've done it, even within my own church.

Before I left the church, someone was speaking on spousal abuse and his (guest speaker) idea that the abused shouldn't seek outside help or leave. They should go to their chuch and allow the church to deal with it.

I had just come home from mission work in KY and WV. There I worked as a child and parent advocate at a shelter for abused women and their children. I knew the statistics. I had even met a young woman who had come there, who's father in law was a respected preacher. When she went to him with bruises all over her face and body, he told her she should try to be more pleasing for her husband so he wouldn't need to correct her.

This poor young woman and her little girl popped into my mind and before I could over think it, I stood up where I was sitting, and turned my back on the speaker. I stayed in that position, quietly, while he finished his sermon. I didn't move, I didn't flinch, I prayed.

I've only ever done that one time. I have gotten up and walked out of a church, but that was so over the top for me, that I couldn't let it go unchallenged.


If the LGBT all went as a large group to an unwelcoming church and integrated ourselves with them, waited until they loved and accepted us, then "came out".

Well, if that we me, I would feel decieved. I understand what you are saying, I truly do. But, there are very loving and honest people out there who TRULY believe that all gays are going to hell. In that love, they pray, they encourage but they won't budge from that belief. Most of them are NOT the ones trying to dictate their beliefs through laws enacted against our rights.

There will always be prejudices, always be people who will only ever see things as black or white. That is OK with me, as long as they keep it out of my "life".

And in return, I will keep my beliefs out of theirs.

Isn't going to church, just going to church? At the heart of this argument is the fact that it sounds like many feel a need to announce we are queer to enter a church. If we hide it, we are being deceptive. If we are authentic, we risk being rejected. It's something we confront all the time. Who do we tell we're queer? It's another part of heterosexual privilege.