Bravehearts: FTMs who cannot or choose not to medically transition

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I appreciate this post as it gets to areas that I feel just get side-lined in terms of female masculinity. I also feel that the 3rd Gendered get lumped into transgendered identities. Third-genered individuals are not transgendered and going to transition out of a specific gender composite that is just fine as it is and not on (or desiring to be) on T, not interested in any gendered surgical procedures (although, as Words points out, many desire top surgery). Third- gendered people embrace the female gender identification (may or may not use hy, hym, etc. and are comfortable with themselves as is). Their sexuality may be or not be lesbian. And they are not inter-gendered.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that transgendered theory and studies have advanced acceptance of the full spectrum of gender identities. However, the 3rd-gendered really don't belong within the classification of transgendered and remain proudly female. Yet, are constantly shoved into trans status.

Diversity within diversity can be a lonely and misunderstood place to be.

AtLast, the part of your post that I underlined, I am confused or perhaps it is just a disagreement. In my understanding I thought to be transgender means you transgress gender lines. I consider myself to be a third gender. I do see myself as Transgender but not Transsexual. Yes, I think I hold ideas very similar to Blue but I am taking the step to legally change my gender. I know I was born into the body of a female and without T or surgery represented as masculine. I too like you do not believe masculinity is strictly the pervue of men.

I think many of us here share similar ideas but we just go down different paths to come to the same or similar beliefs, ideas. I hope you take this post in the spirit of which it is meant to be. Only a difference of opinion. Not a mean spirited calling out.

[Greyson]

( I tried to add this to my above post but the thought came to me after the 30 minute period of time to edit.)

In my thinking one does not have to take T or have surgeries to be Transgender. If you challenge, trangress, break out of the box of what the dominate culture says is how a particular gender is expressed then you come under the umbrella of Transgender. To be Trangender does not necessarily imply you are no longer a woman. To me it implies you are not restricting your expression of your gender to the assigned box. This sort of thinking does stretch or break the belief in the binary.

Sorry if I am not articulating this in a comprehensive and linear manner. I am thinking with my finger tips on the keyboard.

[Soon]

At Last,

Your post was in reference to Word's post who stated that Blue identifies as third-gendered.

You stated: "Third-genered (sic) individuals are not transgendered and going to transition out of a specific gender composite that is just fine as it is and not on (or desiring to be) on T"


You also stated that third gendered people are "not interested in any gendered surgical procedures (although you do say some desire top surgery--but this IS a major surgical procedure that is considered a gendered one)....and are "comfortable with themselves as is."

[Bold Emphasis mine]


-----------------------------
However, Word's post regarding Blue--who identifies as third-gendered--seems to contradict your definition and perception of this term.

Blue is taking T, is desirous of top surgery and refers to hymself in a way other than with female pronouns seems to undercut what YOUR definition of being third gendered is--there does seem steps of transition taken to, as Word's puts it, "masculinize" -- despite Blue not identifying as male.

Isn't the example of Blue a bit at odds with what your definition of third-gendered is?

I have no issue with Blue's identification at all; however, it doesn't appear that Blue even falls under what your interpretation of third-gendered is.


I also don't understand how you get to decide that being third gendered is not also considered transgendered -- for some (not to mention the medical establishment).

Finally, I don't understand you positing that all people who consider themselves transgendered DO take steps to transition. Many don't and some may take some steps but not others.

[Apocalipstic]

Is it possible that the definitions are different for each person?

[Soon]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Is it possible that the definitions are different for each person?

I agree--what is third-gendered or transgendered for one may be different for another. (in terms of pronouns, steps to transition or not, and male or female identification--or neither).

That is why I was a bit put off by At Last's post who seemed to have the parameters laid out for the definition of both third gendered and transgendered.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Is it possible that the definitions are different for each person?

Quite.

Just a gentle reminder that this is a thread about FTMs who cannot or choose not to medically transition. I'm not saying that all but FTMs are excluded, but rather that is the focus of this particular thread.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Liam

Quite.

Just a gentle reminder that this is a thread about FTMs who cannot or choose not to medically transition. I'm not saying that all but FTMs are excluded, but rather that is the focus of this particular thread.

FTMs or at least some FTMs are Transgender.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Greyson

FTMs or at least some FTMs are Transgender.

No argument from me, on that one Greyson.

From the Oxford dictionary:

transgender |tranzˈjendər; trans-| (also transgendered)
adjective
identified with a gender other than the biological one : a transgender activist and author.

If we agree to accept that definition, all FTMs are transgender.

However, as I understand it, AtLast is not discussing those that identify with a gender other than the biological one.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Liam

Quite.

Just a gentle reminder that this is a thread about FTMs who cannot or choose not to medically transition. I'm not saying that all but FTMs are excluded, but rather that is the focus of this particular thread.

Right, so sorry.
I will back out of course

It just seemed that different people had definitions for themselves.

Thanks for the reminder....off I go.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Right, so sorry.
I will back out of course

It just seemed that different people had definitions for themselves.

Thanks for the reminder....off I go.

oops! me too.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Right, so sorry.
I will back out of course

It just seemed that different people had definitions for themselves.

Thanks for the reminder....off I go.

Apocalipstic, I didn't say only FTMs could post in this thread. I was talking about the topic, not the requirements for posting in the thread.

I thought you brought up a very valid point, about definitions. I have learned to ask what someone means when they use the word transgender, because it does mean different things to different folks.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Liam

Quite.

Just a gentle reminder that this is a thread about FTMs who cannot or choose not to medically transition. I'm not saying that all but FTMs are excluded, but rather that is the focus of this particular thread.

I tried to be very clear with my original post, that I was talking about the topic and not those posting.

I am sorry that HowSoonIsNow and Apocalipstic misunderstood.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Liam

I tried to be very clear with my original post, that I was talking about the topic and not those posting.

I am sorry that HowSoonIsNow and Apocalipstic misunderstood.

So sorry, I wondered about posting in a Trans thread anyway, so just assumed I should not have been.

Either way great thread!

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by Liam

I tried to be very clear with my original post, that I was talking about the topic and not those posting.

I am sorry that HowSoonIsNow and Apocalipstic misunderstood.

I am glad you clarified that Liam. When I first read the post I thought that's what you meant as well. I think it's very important to have these kinds of conversations in threads. If someone has questions and they come in and ask it in a respectful manner it can really be conductive to a better understanding of one another. All should be welcome to participate.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Is it possible that the definitions are different for each person?

Yes, I think it is possible for each person to have a different definition for the word "Transgender" or "FTM."

But..... at some point I think it is necessary for us all to at least know what is the general accepted meaning of words. How else are we going to try and communicate some of this stuff?

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Greyson

AtLast, the part of your post that I underlined, I am confused or perhaps it is just a disagreement. In my understanding I thought to be transgender means you transgress gender lines. I consider myself to be a third gender. I do see myself as Transgender but not Transsexual. Yes, I think I hold ideas very similar to Blue but I am taking the step to legally change my gender. I know I was born into the body of a female and without T or surgery represented as masculine. I too like you do not believe masculinity is strictly the pervue of men.

I think many of us here share similar ideas but we just go down different paths to come to the same or similar beliefs, ideas. I hope you take this post in the spirit of which it is meant to be. Only a difference of opinion. Not a mean spirited calling out.

No, don't see a call-out at all. or, mean-spirited in any way.

Actually, we are in agreement as to the fluidity of gender as well as differing modifications one might want to (or not) made. And there is the semantics tangle, too. I would use transcend rather than transgress or transition. Transsexual means this to me as well. Transcending (going beyond) the traditional gender binary. For me, within a 3rd gendered context, it is about this for many of us. What I feel happens often is that the 3rd gendered are lumped into some form of transition when that is not what is going on at all. Transgender theory/studies (along withTranssexuality constructs) seems like something that can promote understanding and hopefully, enlightenment. Especially for kids that fall somewhere on the gender spectrum and not within the traditional gender binary.

In thinking about body modification, hormone treatment and gender reassignment of birth records and name changes, I feel like this is as diverse as the individuals embarking on some or all of these journeys. I have listened both professionally and as a friend to these personal stories for 35 years now. I honestly can't say that I could put any kind of these thoughts into any kind of specific grouping. All are different in significant and personal ways.

Something that occurs to me as well is about butches that desire or have top surgery done and it really not being different overall than why women have done cosmetic breast surgery forever - whether its reduction or augmentation. It seems like it is simply about personal body alignment. Sure, for many, it is part of transitioning in some form than other people identifying along the gender spectrum.

Something else that comes up for me related to all of this is the almost non-existant conversations about MtF's. But, I guess this is for another thread! Just feels like we don't embrace the significance in gender theory of feminine transcendance in re-shaping the binary. There are lots of these same gender variables that relates to femmes as well. To me, it touches everyone.

Make sense?

Gender is both complex and fascinating and sometimes I wonder if I will ever have a complete understanding of it!

Also, I have to wonder if some of my sensitivity about the 3rd-gendered being relegated to trans status isn't more deeply related to my own negative dealings with non-queer lesbians that are transphopic and not related to this community at all.

Post Script- glad to see the actual definitions concerning gender posted!

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

No, don't see a call-out at all. or, mean-spirited in any way.

Actually, we are in agreement as to the fluidity of gender as well as differing modifications one might want to (or not) made. And there is the semantics tangle, too. I would use transcend rather than transgress or transition. Transsexual means this to me as well. Transcending (going beyond) the traditional gender binary. For me, within a 3rd gendered context, it is about this for many of us. What I feel happens often is that the 3rd gendered are lumped into some form of transition when that is not what is going on at all. Transgender theory/studies (along withTranssexuality constructs) seems like something that can promote understanding and hopefully, enlightenment. Especially for kids that fall somewhere on the gender spectrum and not within the traditional gender binary.

In thinking about body modification, hormone treatment and gender reassignment of birth records and name changes, I feel like this is as diverse as the individuals embarking on some or all of these journeys. I have listened both professionally and as a friend to these personal stories for 35 years now. I honestly can't say that I could put any kind of these thoughts into any kind of specific grouping. All are different in significant and personal ways.

Something that occurs to me as well is about butches that desire or have top surgery done and it really not being different overall than why women have done cosmetic breast surgery forever - whether its reduction or augmentation. It seems like it is simply about personal body alignment. Sure, for many, it is part of transitioning in some form than other people identifying along the gender spectrum.

Something else that comes up for me related to all of this is the almost non-existant conversations about MtF's. But, I guess this is for another thread! Just feels like we don't embrace the significance in gender theory of feminine transcendance in re-shaping the binary. There are lots of these same gender variables that relates to femmes as well. To me, it touches everyone.

Make sense?

Gender is both complex and fascinating and sometimes I wonder if I will ever have a complete understanding of it!

Also, I have to wonder if some of my sensitivity about the 3rd-gendered being relegated to trans status isn't more deeply related to my own negative dealings with non-queer lesbians that are transphopic and not related to this community at all.

Post Script- glad to see the actual definitions concerning gender posted!

Thanks for attempting to offer more clarification. All of this is very interesting stuff. I guess perhaps this discussion should go into another thread. ( I do not believe that all posts should be specific to the initial post starting the thread. But not all feel this way.)

I think the notion that perhaps some of your thinking could be related to some transphobic stuff is a very brave statement to make. Yet, shows you are open to thinking, exploring, learning, relearning. Thanks.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Thanks for attempting to offer more clarification. All of this is very interesting stuff. I guess perhaps this discussion should go into another thread. ( I do not believe that all posts should be specific to the initial post starting the thread. But not all feel this way.)

I think the notion that perhaps some of your thinking could be related to some transphobic stuff is a very brave statement to make. Yet, shows you are open to thinking, exploring, learning, relearning. Thanks.

Have to catch-up with the newer posts... about thread intent and this discussion. No, don't want to derail.

The statements about the transphobic lesbians were about me getting very negative stuff from non-queer lesbians (mainly a couple across the street from me) about my being a butch and their mega-jump to I must be trans. Also, they are just plain transphobic (I always get an upset stomach when having trans friends over and they are around). But, I think we all have internalized homo, trans phobic histories. And yes, I have to look at what I am sensitive about here.

[Hack]

I find it interesting to see a thread that is about the courage not to transition, when in my own personal circumstance, I choose not to based on apprehension. My main worry being the impact on my career, which is a very high visibility job in the state where I live. A state, I may add, that is not exactly seen as cutting edge for gender expression/gay rights/queer rights.

Professionally, I use my female name. In the rest of my life, I go by Jake. I've lived in this skin, or sometimes this bubble, my entire life. I'm used to it. I know the landscape of my life better than anyone. I've been inconvenienced because of how I choose to live, but what is more important to me is that I made my choice for me.

And I think everyone in this community -- queer, trans, butch, femme -- is brave. In my opinion, some of the bravest people in this community are the femmes who stand alongside us, and in those lucky cases, who love us. As we are. As we choose to be. As we evolve. As we traverse the landscape of gender fluidity. They are the members of this community who have my utmost respect. And I also respect anyone who lives their life on their terms, according to their own code.

Jake

[theoddz]

Originally Posted by Hack

I find it interesting to see a thread that is about the courage not to transition, when in my own personal circumstance, I choose not to based on apprehension. My main worry being the impact on my career, which is a very high visibility job in the state where I live. A state, I may add, that is not exactly seen as cutting edge for gender expression/gay rights/queer rights.

Professionally, I use my female name. In the rest of my life, I go by Jake. I've lived in this skin, or sometimes this bubble, my entire life. I'm used to it. I know the landscape of my life better than anyone. I've been inconvenienced because of how I choose to live, but what is more important to me is that I made my choice for me.

And I think everyone in this community -- queer, trans, butch, femme -- is brave. In my opinion, some of the bravest people in this community are the femmes who stand alongside us, and in those lucky cases, who love us. As we are. As we choose to be. As we evolve. As we traverse the landscape of gender fluidity. They are the members of this community who have my utmost respect. And I also respect anyone who lives their life on their terms, according to their own code.

Jake

Jake, I also echo your sentiments here about the Ladies who stand by us being so very worthy of our highest respects and recognition. What many don't know is that these Ladies go through their own "transitions" and "journeys" to become who they are. This is a pretty significant thing, yet it's not widely known or often recognized because the part that always seems to be more "visible" (for lack of a better word) is the journey of the transman. Let me tell you, some/many of these women go through a hell of a transition themselves, towards finding out and then living who THEY are. They don't need us to define who they are.....that is THEIR journey, and every bit a part of who they are.

Thank you, Ladies.

~Theo~