I Don't Get It

[Julien]

Originally Posted by Turtle

In hope of deeper understanding...

I don't understand why the play "Death of a Salesman" is popular and/or so important in the "mainstream" culture...which admittedly I am outside.

Can someone help me understand what it is I don't get about it?

This play, I think, is about expectations and failed expectations a father has for his sons, wife, especially himself; expectations the sons have for the father and his failure to live up to those expectations. In fact in the eyes of the father, his pride and joy, Biff does not live up to those expectations he has rightly or wrongly placed upon him. We should ask is the bar raised too high, is there some sort of perfection that is sought but sorely missing out? No one is perfect, Willy and his family are archetypes for a family under the disillusionment and imperfection of humanity. I hope I don't get too convoluted here, but I think this is important to note the time period this play was written in and the ending of World War II. As well as a study of the tensions between fathers and sons and what they believe the other to be. This play is a drama a tragedy that is a study of this bond between the father and son and what happens when one is seen as a failure in the others eyes. Either by chance or by intent. I think it is a commentary many films and plays of this era comments on that being the rebellious youth against authority, even if that authority is corrupt in some way. Think James Dean's character in East of Eden. I have more to say but will leave it for now.

[Turtle]

Thanks, Julien. That helps a lot...

And - it is on Broadway now with huge popularity...or may that speak more to the acting? It is a major acting piece, difficult, painful, a great honor to play the part of Willy, but the role has a difficult impact on the actors real life.

I have been known to blow off "tradition" and conventional things...for me, the danger of "expectations," particularly those of parents upon children and the ramifications of failure have always been apparent to me...maybe this is why I have trouble with the play?

And maybe I should say, I grew up in the 60s and 70s when it was much more acceptable to challenge authority...maybe because of plays and movies like this and of the James Dean type.

Any other thoughts?

[Hollylane]

This is an interesting thread Turtle. I'd like to see what people's different takes are on Death of A Salesman. Being a Capricorn, I tend to logic things to death sometimes. So, I hear what you're saying, and Julien's take is interesting. Taking the time period into consideration is, in my opinion, a great place to start from, in understanding why this play appeals to some in a different way.

My frivolous "I don't get it"...

Frozen peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. I don't get it.

Why does this appeal to some Americans? When I think about the fact that someone had the "creative" idea to market these to Americans. I immediately am concerned about the marketing's intended targets and how they arrived at this relationship with food. Hopefully I'm not offending anyone, but these are my honest thoughts about this food product, and I don't get why some people don't see the deeper issues surrounding convenience foods.

[LeftWriteFemme]

Turtle,

Thank you for this thread. I was having this discussion with a friend just the other night. She is a lover of drama and I am very selective of the drama I watch. If I don't feel it will help me move forward to a happier life I chose to avoid it. Death of a Salesman is on my avoid list for sure; my friend was suggesting I watch Glenn Gary Glenn Ross and when I asked her how I might benefit from watching this, her comment was.....the pain is so real. Personally, I've had enough real pain and am not looking for a refresher course. She has also recommended, Come Back Little Sheba.....it's not that I'm suggesting these aren't good films, I'm just saying they don't ring for me, say the way that, The Lion in Winter, does; it's drama, but I feel hopeful when I watch it.

I am a comedy watcher, but I will admit that I don't understand the attraction of The Three Stooges, I love the Marx Brothers, but the Stooges leave me cold.
Likewise, Woody the Woodpecker is something I don't understand, though I love The Animaniacs.

Again, thanks Turtle for this thread, there are so many things that strike a cord for some and not for others, it will be nice to hear from all sides.

[Julien]

Originally Posted by LeftWriteFemme

Turtle,

Thank you for this thread. I was having this discussion with a friend just the other night. She is a lover of drama and I am very selective of the drama I watch. If I don't feel it will help me move forward to a happier life I chose to avoid it. Death of a Salesman is on my avoid list for sure; my friend was suggesting I watch Glenn Gary Glenn Ross and when I asked her how I might benefit from watching this, her comment was.....the pain is so real. Personally, I've had enough real pain and am not looking for a refresher course. She has also recommended, Come Back Little Sheba.....it's not that I'm suggesting these aren't good films, I'm just saying they don't ring for me, say the way that, The Lion in Winter, does; it's drama, but I feel hopeful when I watch it.

I am a comedy watcher, but I will admit that I don't understand the attraction of The Three Stooges, I love the Marx Brothers, but the Stooges leave me cold.
Likewise, Woody the Woodpecker is something I don't understand, though I love The Animaniacs.

Again, thanks Turtle for this thread, there are so many things that strike a cord for some and not for others, it will be nice to hear from all sides.

I think it is an intellectual response versus an emotional response or even a superfiscial knee jerk response when it comes to comedy and what we like. I like wit better than slapstick and the turn of a phrase over someone having a building fall on them. However at this moment, I am thinking now how Charlie Chaplin was able to put the emotions of compassion into his films, without dialogue let alone sound. I can see that type of comedy because it's about self. I do not see the draw of the Three Stooges either, but that's just me. In terms of films I prefer the intellectual comedy of a Katherine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy with it's witty banter and innuendo. You have to pay attention to it and it is subtle. I like that.

[Turtle]

Wow, Hollylane, I love peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, but I never heard of them frozen...hmmmmm. I take it these are being marketed at kids, who like, couldn't make their own P B & J sammiches and put 'em in the freezer?

LeftWriteFemme - when I was younger (I'm 53) I used to watch lots of "painful" tv & film; I think to feel, emote, think, sort things out, learn, develop an opinion on different situations...and now I will attempt to skip it if it if it is not new and different for me - more of the same ugliness is not to be added into my consciousness.

I like comedy that makes me laugh out loud (and slipping on banana peels ain't gonna do it for me) and comedy that makes me think and expand my boundaries - social commentary kind of stuff can being smart funny...and edgy.

And both you and Julien make me want to get to netflix...now I have to choose where to start...

Thanks again, Julien, we've all got a couple of hours before fireworks, even on the east coast...

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by LeftWriteFemme

Turtle,

... my friend was suggesting I watch Glenn Gary Glenn Ross ....

For more than a decade, coworkers (sales guys) have suggested I watch Glenn Gary Glenn Ross. I finally bit the bullet and watched it a couple of weeks ago. There was some funny sentimentality to the big speech by Alec Baldwin in the beginning, almost a (negative) nostalgia about how sales organizations used to run, and some still do. However, I couldn't get much past that part, because it reminded me of so much of what I hated about living in NYC. Miserable people living miserable lives and complaining about it nonstop. I lived it for real, and have no desire to watch it on DVD. So, I saw the big speech part, I snickered, remembering those times, and then I struggled through 10 more minutes and turned it off.

When I went back my office on Monday and told everyone I had watched it, the most enthusiastic of my coworkers said, "Well, what did you think??!!!", and I told him. After about 5 seconds he said, "You're right. There's no real reason to watch it except for the speech by Alec Baldwin."

I thought that was pretty funny actually, that here he had spent all this time trumping it up, telling me I HAD TO watch it, only to realize it actually wasn't that great after all. It probably goes to the point of the original poster here... sometimes, in fact a LOT of times, people jump on a bandwagon they aren't even aware of. I'm not that way at all, in fact, I avoid most things that are trendy and popular. I'm sort of anti-trendy, and it irks me when my anti things become trendy... like tattoos.

[Turtle]

Thanks...

I'm pretty anti-trendy myself and often, I just can't do reality as entertainment, either.

I never got around to checking out LWF's suggestion....I will try to check out, at least the speech, later.

[cinnamongrrl]

I dont get....why I cant find a thread I'm looking for even when I do a search for it....by name.....and how even though I've posted in the thread before, I cant even find it in my user CP..... Im IRKED......

[Teddybear]

Originally Posted by cinnamongrrl563

I dont get....why I cant find a thread I'm looking for even when I do a search for it....by name.....and how even though I've posted in the thread before, I cant even find it in my user CP..... Im IRKED......

Wants some help??? Bet u I can find it (weg)

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by cinnamongrrl563

I dont get....why I cant find a thread I'm looking for even when I do a search for it....by name.....and how even though I've posted in the thread before, I cant even find it in my user CP..... Im IRKED......

Me, too!!! I search on the correct title and it still comes up with zilch! Maybe Teddybear can explain it...although maybe that offer was just for cinnamongrrl563 ;-)

[Teddybear]

Originally Posted by Turtle

Me, too!!! I search on the correct title and it still comes up with zilch! Maybe Teddybear can explain it...although maybe that offer was just for cinnamongrrl563 ;-)

I dont search I go to the forums home page and then go down the categories till I find where I think it will be and look in there easy peasy

[pinkgeek]

Re: Death of a Salesman - I can't help but think of Eugene O'Neil and Long Day's Journey into Night (written close to the same time period I believe). The Tyrones are another family suffering under the disillusionment and imperfections of life.

In my experience the value in these tragic plays is that they do mimic real life. If anyone could "just stop" or "just don't" etc. etc. there would be less poverty, disease, abuse etc, but that isn't how humans are wired. Perfect logic is interrupted by dreams, lust, greed, fear, shame and thus often imperfect choices are all that can be seen and certainly what is chosen.

If the only stories we told in theatre and books were stories of Happily.Ever.After where all the characters made all the logical choices it would not be art reflecting life - it would be art reflecting an illusions of perfection. (I'm sure the right wing would just love this concept!)

Your mileage may vary.

Originally Posted by Julien

This play, I think, is about expectations and failed expectations a father has for his sons, wife, especially himself; expectations the sons have for the father and his failure to live up to those expectations. In fact in the eyes of the father, his pride and joy, Biff does not live up to those expectations he has rightly or wrongly placed upon him. We should ask is the bar raised too high, is there some sort of perfection that is sought but sorely missing out? No one is perfect, Willy and his family are archetypes for a family under the disillusionment and imperfection of humanity. I hope I don't get too convoluted here, but I think this is important to note the time period this play was written in and the ending of World War II. As well as a study of the tensions between fathers and sons and what they believe the other to be. This play is a drama a tragedy that is a study of this bond between the father and son and what happens when one is seen as a failure in the others eyes. Either by chance or by intent. I think it is a commentary many films and plays of this era comments on that being the rebellious youth against authority, even if that authority is corrupt in some way. Think James Dean's character in East of Eden. I have more to say but will leave it for now.