What you may not know about Chick-fil-A

[BullDog]

Well Ender I think capitalism as an economic system sucks but it's what we have. There's lots and lots of problems in this world.

[aishah]

the issue that i see is that capitalism, at least in the u.s., is built on exploitation and inequality. the capitalist system that we have cannot exist without exploitation and inequality. so personally i have a hard time separating the two. i mean - in an immediate sense - don't spend money at chik-fil-a, spend your queer dollars elsewhere. in a long-term sense - if one is serious about ending poverty, which disproportionately affects women and queer people, and upending the systems of oppression that exist, we are going to have to dismantle the corporate system.

[Kobi]

Many valid and thought provoking points have been made here. Some reactionary, emotion fueled ones have surfaced as well. All are understandable.

This is tricky and very annoying stuff. And everytime it rears its ugly head, I find myself grappling with the same issues:

1. I liked it better when I thought there were simple right and wrong answers to every dilemma. Today, I am pretty sure, there is no absolute right/wrong that fits every person and every situation. There are many points of view and beliefs and it behooves humans to find common ground on which to compromise so that a peaceful coexistence can emerge. It's possible but it removes the drama factor people seem to thrive on.

2. Diversity does not mean only that stuff that is acceptable. Diversity means differences, unlikeness, variety. As such the republicans and religious nutcases have as much right to their beliefs (as idiotic and contradictory as we might find them to be) as we do. If we cannot allow them their diversity, we are hard pressed to demand them to respect ours. I hate this cuz it causes me much grief but I believe it cuz of what I said in #1.

3. Groups that feel threatened act/react much like petulant 2 year olds. If we want to work toward a positive result, someone has to have the balls to put down the shovel, get out of the sandbox, and act like a freakin adult. Be nice if we could trade off on this now and then so all parties can practice being both kids and adults.

4. Ghandi, Martin Luther King......great leaders and thinkers knew hatred wasnt cured with hatred. This is fucking annoying yet true. We cannot fix republican religious hatred by making a mockery of their beliefs. Making a mockery of their beliefs adds to them feeling threatened AND it makes them look like they are being persecuted for their beliefs. This, in turn, makes them more ripe for a sympathetic following by people who ordinarily could care less.

5. Einstein said, insanity is doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result. Yet, we humans, try to solve things by employing the same strategies over and over again. Then we are perplexed when it doesnt work. I dont know what the answer is. But, I am pretty sure it is not going to be found in rehashing the same no-win shit/arguments/stances/strategies over and over and over again.

[BullDog]

Being an informed citizen and consumer is something I can control and do something about. It may not change the world but it is something tangible. And I do think that less money going to hate groups is a very good thing. Anti equality causes and hate groups do cause lots and lots of damage. If I can play a small part in slowing that machine down and not supporting it with my dollars I will.

I will keep an eye on corporations and other entities that help to fund anti equality and hate groups and I will not spend my money with them. That is something tangible that I can do.

[Ciaran]

By a quick calculation, I've spent almost 2 years of my adult life in the United States and, until this controversy, I'd never heard of Chick-fil-a. Not sure why that is but a quick scan at their website indicates that their food is absolute rubbish. Therefore, I don't need to boycott Chick-fil-a as, whether homophobic or not, I wouldn't have been a patron. Similarly, I won't be kissing on Chick-fil-a premises as I'm not really one for public displays of affection, especially in cheap plastic booths (last time I did that, I was 15 or so).



However, just a few observations. The issue of religious views and the purposefulness of engaging with those who have dogmatic "old light" Christian faith. It's already been pointed out by some on this thread that there's little point in trying to use reason to convince someone who believes the bible's Old Testament (or, rather, selected extracts from it) in a literal sense.


That's undoubtedly the case but, furthermore, it's not the religious fanatics that need to be convinced as regards LGBT rights. Rather, it's the middle ground, some of whom hold less repressive religious views and some who are atheist. It's the battle to win the hearts and minds of the middle ground that's key - that's an evolutionary process that is happening through positive representation of LGBT peoples in mainstream society.


Secondly, as much as I admire the attachment that many Americans have to the US Constitution, don't forget that irrespective of whatever freedoms it offers and protection from Government interference, LGBT rights for US citizens are less than those in most other western countries.


Added to that, the US Constitution effectively provides considerable power to the judiciary and, as most of us know, the judiciary can be as personally and politically motivated as any legislature or, for that matter, any human body.


The US Constitution was framed at a time when protection from Government was important. Today, however, it is generally recognised (outside the US) that one of Government's roles is to protect its people (for example, from discriminatory labour practices) i.e. that the framework for a successful society is the Government to protect its people, not for people to need to be protected from Government.


This continued US rhetoric about personal freedoms, in my view, hinders the progression of a society that offers basic protective rights - I was amazed at the chart, assuming it is accurate, that was posted in this thread showing the US states in which it is legal to dismiss employees for being LGBT. Great that the US has a constitution but, me, I prefer substantive rights.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Added to that, the US Constitution effectively provides considerable power to the judiciary and, as most of us know, the judiciary can be as personally and politically motivated as any legislature or, for that matter, any human body.

So? As you said, that is true of any institution. The judiciary in the U.S. has a history of protecting minority rights.

Originally Posted by Ciaran

The US Constitution was framed at a time when protection from Government was important. Today, however, it is generally recognised (outside the US) that one of Government's roles is to protect its people (for example, from discriminatory labour practices) i.e. that the framework for a successful society is the Government to protect its people, not for people to need to be protected from Government.

Excellent point, but, as you say, not recognized or accepted in the U.S. We sadly have an exaggerated fear of government. You can't get even a liberal to praise government in the U.S. There has been no vision of government as a force for good since Reagan. I watch old episodes of West Wing and pretend they really happened and cry. (just kidding) Anyway, that's lost for now.

Originally Posted by Ciaran

This continued US rhetoric about personal freedoms, in my view, hinders the progression of a society that offers basic protective rights - I was amazed at the chart, assuming it is accurate, that was posted in this thread showing the US states in which it is legal to dismiss employees for being LGBT. Great that the US has a constitution but, me, I prefer substantive rights.

Very true. But we are also LOSING these personal freedoms. It would seem like at least a few people care. I am thinking of Ron Paul's youthful followers. (not a supporter of Paul, but there are some hopeful elements in his popularity.) Anyway, during the Bush era, I wondered if anyone did care. And talking about personal freedoms is one way to reach out to people. My students sure care about whether they can be arrested and held without cause. Most people care about how their personal information is used.

And there is no "either or" between the US constitution and substantive rights. In fact, that constitution has helped us guarantee substantive rights, any number of times. VOTING rights, for example. Freedom of the press. You can argue that the market means that we do not get much of a choice when we vote or that the Press has been reduced to cheap entertainment. How little coverage the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have gotten is a national shame.

But these freedoms still mean something. Republicans as we speak are working hard to restrict the franchise (requiring voters to show ID). They have a healthy fear of voters, especially minority voters. That is an encouraging sign.

[girl_dee]

my feelings.......

i would have never had a problem if CFA or anyone else gave every penny of their profit to their own church, or belief organization. What i have an issue with is them giving their money to "ANTI" groups. Anti this and anti that is IMO trying to stop others from doing what they believe in. i feel funneling money and energy into anti groups defeats the whole purpose, what i fear is the gays ending up looking as ridiculous as the people lining up to buy a hate sandwich.

Do what you want, promote your own beliefs all you want but leave everyone else the hell alone.

It's kinda like what Mother Teresa said when they asked her to go to an Anti-War rally, she declined and said "if you have a Pro-Peace rally, i'll be there. "

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Being an informed citizen and consumer is something I can control and do something about. It may not change the world but it is something tangible. And I do think that less money going to hate groups is a very good thing. Anti equality causes and hate groups do cause lots and lots of damage. If I can play a small part in slowing that machine down and not supporting it with my dollars I will.

I will keep an eye on corporations and other entities that help to fund anti equality and hate groups and I will not spend my money with them. That is something tangible that I can do.

I wholeheartedly agree - and I've been doing exactly that for more than 20 years. I have boycotted Dominos, Walmart, Cracker Barrel, and a slew of other companies for as long as I can remember. ChikFilA has been on that list for a couple of years.

Anyone can spend their money however they see fit, including the people associated with ChikFilA, but I'll be damned if one penny of MY money is going to support their bullshit agenda.

[Martina]

I think we should go have sex in front of every one of their businesses. Dirty kinky scary sex. Let's show up in drag. Let's show up naked. Let's show up mad as hell. Let's practice martial arts moves. Let's sing and dance and be our most outrageous selves. And look them in the eye and let them know that nothing they can ever do will make us change or go away.

[morningstar55]

Originally Posted by Martina

I think we should go have sex in front of every one of their businesses. Dirty kinky scary sex. Let's show up in drag. Let's show up naked. Let's show up mad as hell. Let's practice martial arts moves. Let's sing and dance and be our most outrageous selves. And look them in the eye and let them know that nothing they can ever do will make us change or go away.

Ok call me a stick in the mud..... but i would subject myself or my partner 4 a demostration, for a public display like that. What would it prove?? Is that what we all want them 2 think?? That we are all about sex !?

[morningstar55]

Originally Posted by Martina

I think we should go have sex in front of every one of their businesses. Dirty kinky scary sex. Let's show up in drag. Let's show up naked. Let's show up mad as hell. Let's practice martial arts moves. Let's sing and dance and be our most outrageous selves. And look them in the eye and let them know that nothing they can ever do will make us change or go away.

Ok call me a stick in the mud..... but i would not subject myself or my partner 4 a demostration, for a public display like that. What would it prove?? Is that what we all want them 2 think?? That we are all about sex !?