The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World

Kobi · 08-09-2012, 08:28 AM

Thank you Parker for so eloquently saying what I often feel. And, I appreciate you relating this to sexism in our society.

It seems to me, we as women, have an easy time identifiying sexism as it relates to employment issues, salary issues, sexual harrassment and the like. We have a harder time seeing how our internalized sexism and misogyny affects how we see and treat other women. I suspect we also have a harder time seeing how this internatized stuff affects how we treat masculinity within this community.

In the same vein, internalized sexism and misogyny also affects our dating/mating rituals in ways that can be concerning. And, I am not referring to what happens in private between consenting adults. I am referring to what occurs in a public arena.

To me, there is no difference between a cis male publicly calling attention to his penis, wanting it worshipped, and enumerating on what he wishes to do with it, and someone in this community doing the same thing. To me, they are both examples of women being used as sex objects for sexual gratification and titillation.

Some people may like that, tho I am wondering if they like and/or are aware of what that attitude conveys. Women are not one dimensional beings. And one can easily appreciate all women are and flirt with them without being sexist about it.

Invisibility is an area we need to rethink. It seems to me, many of us, for different reasons, feel invisible to our own people. Yet rather than rally around "invisibility" as an issue for our community to grapple with, we get sidetracked by trying to decide who has the greater right to be pissy about it. The common demoninator here is "invisibility" not id's. Yet, there is a tendency to make people feel more invisible by not acknowledging what they are feeling and why they are feeling it.

Dee also raises an interesting point about how she wishes to be seen and how she chooses to partner. Makes sense to me and I applaud her independent thinking. And, I am sure, on the whole, it will be well received.

However, if I as a female butch say I will only date women who exclusively date other women because this reflects who I am and what I am all about, will it be received with the same respect?

BullDog · 08-09-2012, 08:38 AM

Transwomen most certainly do face a lot of oppression, sexism, violence etc. They often get the double whammy of being treated in some of the most extreme forms of sexism I have ever seen combined with extreme forms of transphobia. So transwomen certainly do face a lot.

So I am not comparing my situation. Yet to say that butch women do not face violence and sexism as a woman is just ridiculous. In fact just because someone uses He or Hy online doesn't mean they aren't going to out in the world either. They face the same things too.

The idea that just because someone uses the pronoun he or hy online means they are more butch and/or more masculine is a big huge joke to me and anyone who knows or meets butches in the real world will know that it isn't true. Yet it continues to get perpetuated.

Unfortunately some of us have been saying the same things for way more than 2 years.

girl_dee · 08-09-2012, 07:44 PM

[QUOTE=Kobi;629689][COLOR="Navy"]

<snip>
Dee also raises an interesting point about how she wishes to be seen and how she chooses to partner. Makes sense to me and I applaud her independent thinking. And, I am sure, on the whole, it will be well received.

However, if I as a female butch say I will only date women who exclusively date other women because this reflects who I am and what I am all about, will it be received with the same respect?

</snip>

Thanks Kobi and i didn't even realize i was in the butch zone, but i do love this sort of thread because i want to learn about others.

Kobi, i imagine your statement is the same as me saying for ME, i only wish to date women who do not want to become a transman or pass as a man. i feel like that reflects who i am and what i am all about. Lot's of wonderful people in the world, but i am only attracted to certain traits... i imagine some may find that offensive?

08-09-2012, 08:28 AM	#1
Kobi Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Biological female. Lesbian. Relationship Status: Happy Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Hanging out in the Atlantic. Posts: 9,234 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,840 Thanked 34,617 Times in 7,640 Posts Rep Power: 21474860	Thank you Parker for so eloquently saying what I often feel. And, I appreciate you relating this to sexism in our society. It seems to me, we as women, have an easy time identifiying sexism as it relates to employment issues, salary issues, sexual harrassment and the like. We have a harder time seeing how our internalized sexism and misogyny affects how we see and treat other women. I suspect we also have a harder time seeing how this internatized stuff affects how we treat masculinity within this community. In the same vein, internalized sexism and misogyny also affects our dating/mating rituals in ways that can be concerning. And, I am not referring to what happens in private between consenting adults. I am referring to what occurs in a public arena. To me, there is no difference between a cis male publicly calling attention to his penis, wanting it worshipped, and enumerating on what he wishes to do with it, and someone in this community doing the same thing. To me, they are both examples of women being used as sex objects for sexual gratification and titillation. Some people may like that, tho I am wondering if they like and/or are aware of what that attitude conveys. Women are not one dimensional beings. And one can easily appreciate all women are and flirt with them without being sexist about it. Invisibility is an area we need to rethink. It seems to me, many of us, for different reasons, feel invisible to our own people. Yet rather than rally around "invisibility" as an issue for our community to grapple with, we get sidetracked by trying to decide who has the greater right to be pissy about it. The common demoninator here is "invisibility" not id's. Yet, there is a tendency to make people feel more invisible by not acknowledging what they are feeling and why they are feeling it. Dee also raises an interesting point about how she wishes to be seen and how she chooses to partner. Makes sense to me and I applaud her independent thinking. And, I am sure, on the whole, it will be well received. However, if I as a female butch say I will only date women who exclusively date other women because this reflects who I am and what I am all about, will it be received with the same respect? __________________

08-09-2012, 08:38 AM	#2
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,640 Times in 4,463 Posts Rep Power: 21474857	Transwomen most certainly do face a lot of oppression, sexism, violence etc. They often get the double whammy of being treated in some of the most extreme forms of sexism I have ever seen combined with extreme forms of transphobia. So transwomen certainly do face a lot. So I am not comparing my situation. Yet to say that butch women do not face violence and sexism as a woman is just ridiculous. In fact just because someone uses He or Hy online doesn't mean they aren't going to out in the world either. They face the same things too. The idea that just because someone uses the pronoun he or hy online means they are more butch and/or more masculine is a big huge joke to me and anyone who knows or meets butches in the real world will know that it isn't true. Yet it continues to get perpetuated. Unfortunately some of us have been saying the same things for way more than 2 years. __________________ Love consists in this, that two solitudes protect and touch and greet each other. - Rainer Maria Rilke

08-09-2012, 07:44 PM	#3
girl_dee Practically Lives Here How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: dee Relationship Status: Hitched up Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Livin’ the Dream Posts: 24,079 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 30,560 Thanked 54,829 Times in 13,908 Posts Rep Power: 21474874	[QUOTE=Kobi;629689][COLOR="Navy"] <snip> Dee also raises an interesting point about how she wishes to be seen and how she chooses to partner. Makes sense to me and I applaud her independent thinking. And, I am sure, on the whole, it will be well received. However, if I as a female butch say I will only date women who exclusively date other women because this reflects who I am and what I am all about, will it be received with the same respect? </snip> Thanks Kobi and i didn't even realize i was in the butch zone, but i do love this sort of thread because i want to learn about others. Kobi, i imagine your statement is the same as me saying for ME, i only wish to date women who do not want to become a transman or pass as a man. i feel like that reflects who i am and what i am all about. Lot's of wonderful people in the world, but i am only attracted to certain traits... i imagine some may find that offensive?