Women-only city planned - What do you think?

aishah · 08-15-2012, 09:23 AM

http://www.autostraddle.com/saudi-ar...aiting-143776/

Quote:

Hussa al-Aun, one of the businesswomen who proposed the series of cities to Modon, said it was "essential to cut unemployment among [the kingdom's] female graduates." Women working in the city will also be offered training and and opportunities to further develop their talents.
The implications of Hofuf have yet to be fully recognized, but from a historical standpoint, this could be the first step towards turning Saudi Arabia on its head, or on its elbows, or on its knees. In a region where women have historically been oppressed at a very extreme level, an entire city devoted to their potential and ambitions seems like it could be a major step forward for the women involved, although what it will mean for the future of Saudi Arabia as a nation remains impossible to predict. In the wake of the accepted proposal for the site, academics and journalists alike have harkened back to Jim Crow, arguments about same-sex education, and the failing logic of a segregated city. But that isn't wholly fair. After all, same-sex education in America might not be our ideal now, but Wellesley and the other sister schools exist because at one point, the Ivy League was a big treehouse with an obnoxious "no girls allowed" sign attached to the front. At one point it was impossible for American women to get an education comparable to that of presidents, business owners, and other breadwinners - so they simply made their own space to do it. Sometimes you have to stop waiting to achieve equality alongside your oppressor and you have to pack up and go.

i'm not sure i fully agree with everything in this article, but i like that it includes input from one of the women who proposed the idea, and that it adds some nuance to the segregation arguments being made elsewhere.

also, i've had a hard time finding info about what the setup of the city would actually be like, but my impression is that women would go there to work/study and wouldn't necessarily live there year-round. it's just setting up the workplace so it's all women without any problems with gender mixing in the workplace (which currently make it difficult for women to work).

Linus · 08-15-2012, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aishah

http://www.autostraddle.com/saudi-ar...aiting-143776/

i'm not sure i fully agree with everything in this article, but i like that it includes input from one of the women who proposed the idea, and that it adds some nuance to the segregation arguments being made elsewhere.

also, i've had a hard time finding info about what the setup of the city would actually be like, but my impression is that women would go there to work/study and wouldn't necessarily live there year-round. it's just setting up the workplace so it's all women without any problems with gender mixing in the workplace (which currently make it difficult for women to work).

This certainly adds far more context as a city by women for women, which I like. That said, given the responses that were smeared against the female athletes, I wonder how long before the Patriarchal-dominated Saudi society starts flinging crap at the idea and eventually kill it. Perhaps I'm overly pessimistic but I have to wonder..

aishah · 08-15-2012, 10:56 AM

i think it's helpful to situate this in the larger context of the issue of gender mixing among muslims.

i seriously doubt the patriarchal saudi government is going to decide this is a terrible idea (but, i don't know, 10 years down the road i might be proven wrong, lol). because it actually makes sense within the context of gender segregation as it's practiced in saudi arabia.

the fact is, most straight muslims i know don't like gender mixing. (women included.) there is a religious basis in islam for not practicing free mixing of genders unless for business or study reasons. even in the u.s., most straight muslims (and some queer and progressive muslims) i've met don't free mix outside of these contexts. and in business or study contexts, things are usually kept very platonic and focused on a specific purpose, and if a man and a woman are alone together the door is open, and usually men and women are not alone together unless there is another woman present. at least, that's been my experience being a part of two predominantly straight muslim students' associations and interacting in the larger muslim community in the u.s.

the issue i see is that gender segregation becomes problematic when it's enforced heavily in the school and workplace (because generally women get pushed out of the school/workplace, which is part of why saudi arabia has such problems with women's unemployment rates) and when it is enforced by law to the point that individuals no longer have any choice about what level they want to participate. and combined with mahram (guardianship) laws, it creates a situation where women can no longer advocate for participating to the extent they want. but it's really complicated - there are situations where gender segregation and mahram laws are actually helpful (especially to poor and rural women), so just repealing the law can actually harm some women (which has been an issue in morocco). and just because a woman is uncomfortable with guardianship laws does not mean she'll be totally comfortable with free mixing of genders. the other issue is when women choose gender segregation and women's spaces are not equally accessible - for example in mosques - women are not required but are permitted to go to the mosque whenever we choose. except women's prayer areas in mosques tend to be extremely inaccessible. another issue is that when gender segregation is combined with the idea that public space is men's space and private space is women's space, it affects women's opportunities to work, study, or otherwise participate in public life. but this is not a new idea the saudis just came up with - it's something non-muslims in the u.s. have struggled with until recently and still continue to struggle with in some ways (the issue of women participating in public life). the issue of gender segregation is also not new in u.s. contexts...the lds church practices it too.

one of the earlier articles i posted included a paragraph about saudi women who are seriously uncomfortable working with men (for religious reasons) and how this idea might give them a space where they can work and be more comfortable.

so yeah, there are a lot of issues with enshrining these things in law and taking away women's right to choose whether and how they will interact with men, and that's really problematic. there's also the issue that saudi arabia takes this to an extreme that really isn't grounded in islamic law (to the point of having women and men not interact publicly, even in business and study contexts). but since those laws are probably not going to change in saudi arabia anytime soon, this is one way to create more access for women to work and study.

but are we saying that women should be forced to interact with men in all spaces whether they want to or not? because that's really problematic, too. i think it's important to respect women's agency to decide when and how they are comfortable interacting with men.

08-15-2012, 10:56 AM	#3
aishah Member How Do You Identify?: queer stone femme shark baby girl Preferred Pronoun?: she, her, little one Relationship Status: dating myself. Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: dallas, tx Posts: 1,495 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 13,823 Thanked 6,442 Times in 1,288 Posts Rep Power: 21474851	i think it's helpful to situate this in the larger context of the issue of gender mixing among muslims. i seriously doubt the patriarchal saudi government is going to decide this is a terrible idea (but, i don't know, 10 years down the road i might be proven wrong, lol). because it actually makes sense within the context of gender segregation as it's practiced in saudi arabia. the fact is, most straight muslims i know don't like gender mixing. (women included.) there is a religious basis in islam for not practicing free mixing of genders unless for business or study reasons. even in the u.s., most straight muslims (and some queer and progressive muslims) i've met don't free mix outside of these contexts. and in business or study contexts, things are usually kept very platonic and focused on a specific purpose, and if a man and a woman are alone together the door is open, and usually men and women are not alone together unless there is another woman present. at least, that's been my experience being a part of two predominantly straight muslim students' associations and interacting in the larger muslim community in the u.s. the issue i see is that gender segregation becomes problematic when it's enforced heavily in the school and workplace (because generally women get pushed out of the school/workplace, which is part of why saudi arabia has such problems with women's unemployment rates) and when it is enforced by law to the point that individuals no longer have any choice about what level they want to participate. and combined with mahram (guardianship) laws, it creates a situation where women can no longer advocate for participating to the extent they want. but it's really complicated - there are situations where gender segregation and mahram laws are actually helpful (especially to poor and rural women), so just repealing the law can actually harm some women (which has been an issue in morocco). and just because a woman is uncomfortable with guardianship laws does not mean she'll be totally comfortable with free mixing of genders. the other issue is when women choose gender segregation and women's spaces are not equally accessible - for example in mosques - women are not required but are permitted to go to the mosque whenever we choose. except women's prayer areas in mosques tend to be extremely inaccessible. another issue is that when gender segregation is combined with the idea that public space is men's space and private space is women's space, it affects women's opportunities to work, study, or otherwise participate in public life. but this is not a new idea the saudis just came up with - it's something non-muslims in the u.s. have struggled with until recently and still continue to struggle with in some ways (the issue of women participating in public life). the issue of gender segregation is also not new in u.s. contexts...the lds church practices it too. one of the earlier articles i posted included a paragraph about saudi women who are seriously uncomfortable working with men (for religious reasons) and how this idea might give them a space where they can work and be more comfortable. so yeah, there are a lot of issues with enshrining these things in law and taking away women's right to choose whether and how they will interact with men, and that's really problematic. there's also the issue that saudi arabia takes this to an extreme that really isn't grounded in islamic law (to the point of having women and men not interact publicly, even in business and study contexts). but since those laws are probably not going to change in saudi arabia anytime soon, this is one way to create more access for women to work and study. but are we saying that women should be forced to interact with men in all spaces whether they want to or not? because that's really problematic, too. i think it's important to respect women's agency to decide when and how they are comfortable interacting with men.