Denying Children cause Parents are Lesbians

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by softness

I wonder if other catholic schools are going to take this stand now as well. I sit here, shaking my head and wonder how a church, with so much love and compassion to offer to this world, would take this stance.

If the church was true to their mission, they would have kept the children in their school so they would have a religious foundation. Because they chose to austrasize the children, it tells me their motives were not for the sake of the children, but for the sake of their doctrine.

So, in other words, they sacrificed these specific children to protect their ancient beliefs.

shame on them...

While I agree that the archdiocese is wrong in their decision, I think that ultimately they are doing this child a long-term favor. NOT going to a Catholic school they will not be exposed to a belief system that is anti-queer and anti-woman. They may learn to think rationally and to have the courage of their convictions to follow it all the way up and all the way down, no matter how uncomfortable that might be.

I was raised in the church (AME) and while I am glad that I learned the Bible as a piece of literature, almost nothing I learned in church that was specifically religious in nature has been of any real use to me as an adult except as a negative example of how NOT to treat other people and how NOT to think.

What's more the archdiocese is being entirely consistent with their beliefs. I understand that some queer people would like Christianity, in its current, American formulation, to be a different religion than what it is but it isn't. The Catholic church just is what it is. Part of what it is is homophobic.

Cheers
Aj

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

While I agree that the archdiocese is wrong in their decision, I think that ultimately they are doing this child a long-term favor. NOT going to a Catholic school they will not be exposed to a belief system that is anti-queer and anti-woman. They may learn to think rationally and to have the courage of their convictions to follow it all the way up and all the way down, no matter how uncomfortable that might be.

I was raised in the church (AME) and while I am glad that I learned the Bible as a piece of literature, almost nothing I learned in church that was specifically religious in nature has been of any real use to me as an adult except as a negative example of how NOT to treat other people and how NOT to think.

What's more the archdiocese is being entirely consistent with their beliefs. I understand that some queer people would like Christianity, in its current, American formulation, to be a different religion than what it is but it isn't. The Catholic church just is what it is. Part of what it is is homophobic.

Cheers
Aj

I am very troubled by this decision and what is behind it. I have to say, however, that I find many myths concerning just how much actual religion is taught within specific faith-run schools. Also, as a Catholic growing up, I did hjave parents that pointed out where the church was wrong. My mother was very clear about the facty that there were world religions and none of them could claim being the true, faith. She leaned over to me weekly during mass and wispered that part isn't true about many things being said. And both of my parents were very clear that sin was bullshit, especially concerning children.

Also, parents do make decisions about the quality of schooling for their kids and frankly, many religious schools do offer better education. I would rather this not be true, but it is. And the main reason I want the tax exemptions that organized religions get to be revoked. That money should be put into the US public education systems.

Yes, as an adult, I needed to transform my spiritual beliefs as Catholocism just wasn't going to cut it. But, I am glad I was raised within a religious home because it did give me a path to to completion as a human within a spiritual context... a foundation to figure out how I could integrate spirit in my life. And no thgere is no old white guy with a beard up there to me. I simply need this in my life, it is a positive energy force for me.

I absolutely go nuts with the influence of church & state in the US and wing-nut fundamentalists (actually that would be world wide), and think all religious organization should not be exempt from taxation.

Yup, no church involved with state matters. But, I embrace the concept of freedom of religion/spirituality (including athiesim) and have to say that I do get tired of all religious and even spiritual belief systems being put into one negative box.

I feel that this lesbian parent should fight this if she really wants her child in this school. This is a step toward combating the homophobia in Catholocism. Just as many Reformist Jews combat sexism (and homophobia) within Judism.

[Soft*Silver]

DG.....I am not wanting to defend Catholisiscm (sp?) in this thread. I do want to point out that the true debate is the rights of this lesbian couple to send their child to a school of their choice. Choice being the operative defining word.

As an empath, I find it very suffocating spiritually when people are not given choices.

And what message does the church's stance and decision send to those (and all, for that matter) children? That their parents have failed them...all by their lesbianism,

my mother was literally physically thrown out of church and told not to come back when she confessed she and my father were using birth control. Condoms. I was the last child and my birth almost killed my mother. She was TERRIFIED of getting pregnant again. She came to confession to be absolved of her sin, and would not budge when the priest insisted she had to stop using condoms. He got out of his confessional and went to her booth, grabbed her by the arm and put her out the main doors, and said she was no longer welcomed there but her children could come so that the church could at least try to redeem them.

I grew up with that shit in my head. I turned the church against my mother. If not for me, she would have been a good Catholic.

and I want to add one more personal thing here..

I attend mass every once in awhile now. My roots are definitly in pagan ways (my people in the old country were druids) As an adult I dont hold the church responsible for what that one priest did to my mother during that point in history. The priest we have now in that same church is the very reason I came back to going to mass at times. He welcomes my lesbian butt in those pews anytime I want to attend. He didnt flinch when my (now X) butch husband was pall bearer for both my mother and father...in a man's suit and tie. He shook my butch's hand and offered him sympathy for losing his mother in law. So, we also need to say, that not all priests and not all catholics follow doctrine to a T....

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

While I agree that the archdiocese is wrong in their decision, I think that ultimately they are doing this child a long-term favor. NOT going to a Catholic school they will not be exposed to a belief system that is anti-queer and anti-woman. They may learn to think rationally and to have the courage of their convictions to follow it all the way up and all the way down, no matter how uncomfortable that might be.

I was raised in the church (AME) and while I am glad that I learned the Bible as a piece of literature, almost nothing I learned in church that was specifically religious in nature has been of any real use to me as an adult except as a negative example of how NOT to treat other people and how NOT to think.

What's more the archdiocese is being entirely consistent with their beliefs. I understand that some queer people would like Christianity, in its current, American formulation, to be a different religion than what it is but it isn't. The Catholic church just is what it is. Part of what it is is homophobic.

Cheers
Aj

[Allison W]

I can't imagine why anyone would want to put their children in a Catholic school anyway.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Allison W

I can't imagine why anyone would want to put their children in a Catholic school anyway.

I think for many parents out there, "religious" schools are an alternative to over- crowded, under staffed ( either by number or quality of educators) and the perceived dangers and bad influences of public schools.

Unfortunately, the trade off may not be such a prize.

[Apocalipstic]

Yes, it is sad when anyone is denied anything because of sexual orientation!

However, I am with AJ. But for an additional reason as well.

I went to religious schools and was at church every time the door was open. It did not however, keep me safe.

I think religious schools give a false sense of security, like nothing bad can happen there. Bad things can and do happen there and the sheltering and denial that goes on can lead to kids not knowing stuff they would know if they went to public school...like how not to put themselves in bad situations where they can be sexually assaulted. If something like that does happen, the school and church will tell the child to keep quiet and deny anything happened.

The kids are safer out in the world. Way safer.

And, think back to your teen years. Who were the wildest kids you knew with the best drugs? The kids at catholic school.

[Rockinonahigh]

Before the catholic church can deny anyone anything they had better do some house cleaning..big time.I went to catholic school for eight years..the stuff I saw go on I just kept quiet about after I mentioned it to my grand parents cause they said it wasnt to be talked about because the teachers were men and women of the cloth and I shouldnt judge them anything because they gave up normal family life to serve the church.As I look back, cause I was just a puny little kid at the time, they were full of self ritious bs.
I will say I got a good education and shure stayed out of trouble for the most part even tho I never fit in with anyone are anything at school.I was geting in the hot seat for asking questions they didnt or couldnt anser about the religion cause i always knew so much of what was being cramed into my head was just wrong.The school quietly and quickly closed ten years ago dureing summer break.All the nuns left to parts unknown but all the preist were replaced with new folks cause the church is one of the biggies hear..

Miss.Diva...I am so glad to know that things are working out with your daughter and you.Yeah,both of u missed a lot but just know how much fun it will be to build a wonderful future with both of youselves in it ..much happyness to u both.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Allison W

I can't imagine why anyone would want to put their children in a Catholic school anyway.

Oh I can think of one off the top of my head: if it's a Jesuit run school the kids WILL get a good education. Will their heads be filled with a lot of religious flimflam? Yes. However, the parts that are *not* a muddle of hogwash and mumbo jumbo will be top-shelf, first class, education.

There are times I WISH I had gone to a Jesuitical school as a kid--not for the theology, of course, but because the kids I knew who did were very well educated. The Jesuits have been at the business of educating youth since, what, the Middle Ages and are very, very good at what they do.

They also happen to be superb at indoctrination but just the emphasis on casuistry (case-based moral reasoning) is, to my mind, worth the risk because it teaches people how to think about reasoning.

Cheers
Aj

[Random]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Oh I can think of one off the top of my head: if it's a Jesuit run school the kids WILL get a good education. Will their heads be filled with a lot of religious flimflam? Yes. However, the parts that are *not* a muddle of hogwash and mumbo jumbo will be top-shelf, first class, education.

There are times I WISH I had gone to a Jesuitical school as a kid--not for the theology, of course, but because the kids I knew who did were very well educated. The Jesuits have been at the business of educating youth since, what, the Middle Ages and are very, very good at what they do.

They also happen to be superb at indoctrination but just the emphasis on casuistry (case-based moral reasoning) is, to my mind, worth the risk because it teaches people how to think about reasoning.

Cheers
Aj

Nods, Nods...

My son went to a catholic hs run by Jesuits... They knew he was agnostic, they knew his parents were lesbians... He was allowed to bring his male best friend as his date to the prom..(His best friend went to public school) He was required to attend high masses, but did not have to attend daily mass. He was required to take the standard catholic history/tenents class as well as world religion classes.

They taught him how to think.. They didn't just prep him for the next test, but taught him how to learn...

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Ms Cyn

Nods, Nods...

My son went to a catholic hs run by Jesuits... They knew he was agnostic, they knew his parents were lesbians... He was allowed to bring his male best friend as his date to the prom..(His best friend went to public school) He was required to attend high masses, but did not have to attend daily mass. He was required to take the standard catholic history/tenents class as well as world religion classes.

They taught him how to think.. They didn't just prep him for the next test, but taught him how to learn...

Precisely right. I wish, oh how I wish, that the public schools were dedicated to the idea that the job of the teacher isn't to prep students for the next test, it's to teach people how to learn and how to be citizens and not just consumers. If we learned about citizenship, what it entails, why it matters, I think we would be a different and better nation.

Both the left and the right in America miss the boat, I think with the issues of education and citizenship. The left has, at best, an ambiguous relationship to promoting the idea that one is a citizen and that this is something meaningful. The right believes in citizenship but what is meant by the right is more along the lines of nationalism than what I have in mind.

Cheers
Aj

[Random]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Precisely right. I wish, oh how I wish, that the public schools were dedicated to the idea that the job of the teacher isn't to prep students for the next test, it's to teach people how to learn and how to be citizens and not just consumers. If we learned about citizenship, what it entails, why it matters, I think we would be a different and better nation.

Both the left and the right in America miss the boat, I think with the issues of education and citizenship. The left has, at best, an ambiguous relationship to promoting the idea that one is a citizen and that this is something meaningful. The right believes in citizenship but what is meant by the right is more along the lines of nationalism than what I have in mind.

Cheers
Aj

Nods.. Creighton Preps moto is.. *Building Men for Others who serve and seek justice in our local, national, and international communities*

The entire public school system needs a complete over haul.. No child left behind has failed on such a massive level.. Forget about learning.. Teach only what the kid needs to pass the next test... Forget about actually preparing a child to think and live.. When Annie was in the states, she was horrified at the way teachers were expected to teach..

[dreadgeek]

Softness:

Okay, here's where I have the courage of my convictions. While I think what the church-run school did was odious, bigoted and needlessly small-minded, I ALSO believe that they had the right to do so. In fact, they have a right to do so that supersedes the right of this lesbian couple to send a child to the school of their choice? How so? Because I want to be protected from the Catholic church making public policy (law) in America. The method that protects me from that is the First Amendment. The *price* for "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion..." (which protects me from having the 80+% of Americans who DO believe in some god or another forcing it down my throat by the use of the democratic process) is that churches can, for the most part, discriminate however they choose, against whomever they choose, for whatever reasons they choose to do so. I may think that discrimination is wrong. I may think that discrimination is odious. I may think that the church doing the discrimination deserves to be roundly excoriating from every hilltop and soapbox in the country. However, that does not mean that I can assert a 'right' to some service that the church provides and expect to have the government enforce that right.

Do the parents of this child have the right to choose a school for their child? Yes. Do the parents of this child have the right to expect that ANY school they choose must accept their child? No. Is that discrimination? Yes. Am I defending discrimination as right? No. My argument is not "the Catholic diocese is correct". My argument is "the Catholic diocese is within their rights to discriminate" because by granting them that right, I keep them on the far side of my government where the amount of harm they can do is mitigated (at least a little bit).

If we state that the parents of this child have a right to send their child to a Catholic school and that the Catholic school is in violation of some non-discrimination clause or another, then we are telling the government to tell the Catholic church how to conduct their affairs. If the government can do that then the Catholic church is within its rights to turn around and petition the government to have its vision of morality foisted upon the rest of us who may not share their belief in a divine being. That foisting, if it were to come to pass, would almost certainly involve laws preventing this lesbian couple from having their child. To prevent that, I may have to put up with things I consider odious or offensive--and those are precisely my judgements about the dioceses' decision regarding this child attending the school.

Our commitment to certain rights are not tested when we are talking about OUR rights. My being in favor of the First Amendment in as much as it benefits *me* tells you nothing about my level of commitment to its underlying principles. It is far more telling how we feel about those rights being applied to those we most vehemently disagree with. My position is not an easy one for me to take because my reflexive sympathies lie with the lesbian couple. However, I value and treasure my right to be non-theistic, to be *openly* and *vocally* non-theistic and not worry that I will have some religious police or inquisition come-a-calling in the middle of the night to take me someplace for reeducation. If having to swallow my disdain for the bigotry on display by some Catholic diocese is the price I have to pay for it, then it is a price I am more than willing to pay no matter what kind of bad taste it leaves in my mouth.

Cheers
Aj

p.s. Please don't take my position on Catholicism to be about Catholicism. I am not fond of ANY form of monotheism or, for that matter, theism of any sort.

Originally Posted by softness

DG.....I am not wanting to defend Catholisiscm (sp?) in this thread. I do want to point out that the true debate is the rights of this lesbian couple to send their child to a school of their choice. Choice being the operative defining word.

As an empath, I find it very suffocating spiritually when people are not given choices.

And what message does the church's stance and decision send to those (and all, for that matter) children? That their parents have failed them...all by their lesbianism,

my mother was literally physically thrown out of church and told not to come back when she confessed she and my father were using birth control. Condoms. I was the last child and my birth almost killed my mother. She was TERRIFIED of getting pregnant again. She came to confession to be absolved of her sin, and would not budge when the priest insisted she had to stop using condoms. He got out of his confessional and went to her booth, grabbed her by the arm and put her out the main doors, and said she was no longer welcomed there but her children could come so that the church could at least try to redeem them.

I grew up with that shit in my head. I turned the church against my mother. If not for me, she would have been a good Catholic.

and I want to add one more personal thing here..

I attend mass every once in awhile now. My roots are definitly in pagan ways (my people in the old country were druids) As an adult I dont hold the church responsible for what that one priest did to my mother during that point in history. The priest we have now in that same church is the very reason I came back to going to mass at times. He welcomes my lesbian butt in those pews anytime I want to attend. He didnt flinch when my (now X) butch husband was pall bearer for both my mother and father...in a man's suit and tie. He shook my butch's hand and offered him sympathy for losing his mother in law. So, we also need to say, that not all priests and not all catholics follow doctrine to a T....

[Soft*Silver]

I read your post and smiled...I too want seperation of religion from government. In fact, whenever I have been vocal about this, I have gotten into heated ugly debates. As a 4H agent, I declared that our camp would not just say xtian prayers or sing xtian songs. If one religion's music and prayers were to be at camp, we had to include other religions materials too. Good lord, I really thought I was going to be tarred and feathered! I was trying to uphold our affirmative action policy AND honor the non xtian parents of children who called in and did not want to send their children to a camp that touted xtianity to such a large degree. It got really ugly...including bringing children to executive committee meetings so they would cry because I was changing the traditions of camp...

but I digress....

I respect what you had to say....I think we are more alike than not...

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Softness:

Okay, here's where I have the courage of my convictions. While I think what the church-run school did was odious, bigoted and needlessly small-minded, I ALSO believe that they had the right to do so. In fact, they have a right to do so that supersedes the right of this lesbian couple to send a child to the school of their choice? How so? Because I want to be protected from the Catholic church making public policy (law) in America. The method that protects me from that is the First Amendment. The *price* for "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion..." (which protects me from having the 80+% of Americans who DO believe in some god or another forcing it down my throat by the use of the democratic process) is that churches can, for the most part, discriminate however they choose, against whomever they choose, for whatever reasons they choose to do so. I may think that discrimination is wrong. I may think that discrimination is odious. I may think that the church doing the discrimination deserves to be roundly excoriating from every hilltop and soapbox in the country. However, that does not mean that I can assert a 'right' to some service that the church provides and expect to have the government enforce that right.

Do the parents of this child have the right to choose a school for their child? Yes. Do the parents of this child have the right to expect that ANY school they choose must accept their child? No. Is that discrimination? Yes. Am I defending discrimination as right? No. My argument is not "the Catholic diocese is correct". My argument is "the Catholic diocese is within their rights to discriminate" because by granting them that right, I keep them on the far side of my government where the amount of harm they can do is mitigated (at least a little bit).

If we state that the parents of this child have a right to send their child to a Catholic school and that the Catholic school is in violation of some non-discrimination clause or another, then we are telling the government to tell the Catholic church how to conduct their affairs. If the government can do that then the Catholic church is within its rights to turn around and petition the government to have its vision of morality foisted upon the rest of us who may not share their belief in a divine being. That foisting, if it were to come to pass, would almost certainly involve laws preventing this lesbian couple from having their child. To prevent that, I may have to put up with things I consider odious or offensive--and those are precisely my judgements about the dioceses' decision regarding this child attending the school.

Our commitment to certain rights are not tested when we are talking about OUR rights. My being in favor of the First Amendment in as much as it benefits *me* tells you nothing about my level of commitment to its underlying principles. It is far more telling how we feel about those rights being applied to those we most vehemently disagree with. My position is not an easy one for me to take because my reflexive sympathies lie with the lesbian couple. However, I value and treasure my right to be non-theistic, to be *openly* and *vocally* non-theistic and not worry that I will have some religious police or inquisition come-a-calling in the middle of the night to take me someplace for reeducation. If having to swallow my disdain for the bigotry on display by some Catholic diocese is the price I have to pay for it, then it is a price I am more than willing to pay no matter what kind of bad taste it leaves in my mouth.

Cheers
Aj

p.s. Please don't take my position on Catholicism to be about Catholicism. I am not fond of ANY form of monotheism or, for that matter, theism of any sort.

[Bit]

If that school does not accept federal funds, then it is not required to abide by federal nondiscrimination policies.

Quite honestly, I believe the girl has been done a HUGE favor. No matter where she goes to school now, she will know that some places are not trustworthy. I wish I had known that as a child, yanno?

[Rook]

This takes the cake.
On Both sides
One has the right to Education...the kids arent queer/lesbian/gay etc.., the parents are.
On the other hand, the archdiocese has every right given by the Bill of Rights as a Religion to enforce their Belief in their Institute however they deem Proper based on their Religion guided by their Head of Church {The Pope, who, if I'm not mistaken, each Pope has publically denounced homosexuality }
The mommies really should've seen this coming a Mile away....Especially if they're catholic {Emphasis on the If cuz I dont see the ladies affiliation}
This hits close to home, I don't have children, yet..
But if I do, I would like to consult my "better half" and be able to decide which education, religious/secular/specialized would be Ideal, and non-traumatic for my children..
I wouldn't want them Miserable in Recess, or P.E., simply because their parents are Different, they have enough on their plate as it is with their own formative years ..
My parents ..well, my father -cough- insisted I attended part-time Madrassahs, in addition to Montessori, when my mother divorced, she had to put us in Public schools, that transition was Hellacious for a few reasons, in addition to learning yet another new language, that and Roman Catholicism was pretty much every where {in addition to Pentecostal}, to the point, I wanted to be in a private catholic school, since the Education seemed ...10 x better.
If I had fights{I'm sure others too}, almost on a daily basis in public junior/High..Imagine what those kids would face in a private Catholic school?
so, yeah, I agree with Aj
Keep church and state Separate, let them pick and Choose, find a better School that teaches Acceptance, maybe Tolerance...
Or..
Home school, if you really really want them educated within Your religion/beliefs..
There are ways to socialize Home Schooled kids.
If it works for the Amish {They're not homeschooling per se, but..they stay amongst themselves for the most part, and after 8th grade, they're removed from School, for religious reasons} ~shrug~ why not?

[Lusciousblondefemme]

I want to thank everyone for having a adult conversation about this subject

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Bit

If that school does not accept federal funds, then it is not required to abide by federal nondiscrimination policies.

Quite honestly, I believe the girl has been done a HUGE favor. No matter where she goes to school now, she will know that some places are not trustworthy. I wish I had known that as a child, yanno?

But, even if they did accept federal funds, currently there is no Federal Non-Discrimination Act that covers gays, lesbians and trans folks, so why would they be proteced?

Maybe I am mistaken with the law.
----

In the Catholic schools in my (Ontario) area (which are entirely publicly funded), there are Muslim and Jewish (among other denominations) students, students and teachers who are divorced; students with parents who are gay; and teachers who are living with their partners. I don't know of an Out gay teacher as of yet, however.

There is also talk of GSA's (Gay/Straight Alliances) being formed in Catholic schools in my area (a handful of public schools have them already).

Interesting thread.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

But, even if they did accept federal funds, currently there is no Federal Non-Discrimination Act that covers gays, lesbians and trans folks, so why would they be proteced?

I don't know the law exactly, but I'm pretty sure no public school in the US can expel a student for being gay--or for their parents' being gay.

Does anyone else know?