only another butch would understand

[BullDog]

I just ran across a thread with a link to a video that I hadn't seen before, so I thought I would post the link in case others hadn't seen it as well. It looks like the video is about an hour long, and I haven't had time to watch it yet, but I believe it is a very important topic. Here is the link:


Tough Guise

I feel that unexamined masculinity is a big problem in our current day queer and butch femme cultures.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I just ran across a thread with a link to a video that I hadn't seen before, so I thought I would post the link in case others hadn't seen it as well. It looks like the video is about an hour long, and I haven't had time to watch it yet, but I believe it is a very important topic. Here is the link:


Tough Guise

I feel that unexamined masculinity is a big problem in our current day queer and butch femme cultures.

Bull Dog, LTNS. I was just going to sign off and the last line about "unexamined masculinity" caught my eye. If I understand you correctly, I agree. When I have more time, I will come back and view the video. I know you already know but for anyone reading this I identify as a Transmasculine Butch.

Good to see you again. Bye for now.

[BullDog]

Thanks Greyson, it's good to see you and I look forward to your thoughts. I haven't gotten much of any response at all so far, and I have posted this here as well as 2 very large butch groups on Facebook. Thank you very much.

[Toughy]

Bully....

give me a little time to take a look at the video.....then I'm sure I'll have some comments.....

unexamined masculinity.....interesting idea..........

[Jet]

The video is interesting, thanks for posting.

[BullDog]

Thanks Toughy and Red. My concern is that, as is pointed out in the video, violence and aggression is part of the cultural norm of masculinity- cultural norm being key. If we don't ever examine this how can we as masculine people be so sure we are just incorporating the positive aspects of masculinity, given how the dark side is so glorified? We see much of the macho attitudes and sexism alive and well in queer culture, and unfortunately domestic violence and abuse as well.

Yes there are differences in that most of us were raised as females and not necessarily socialized to be masculine. I do believe our own brands of masculinity are different because of this. However at the same time so many of us felt masculine and were drawn to masculinity from an early age, so I don't think we are immune from what our culture tells and shows us. Masculinity in and of itself I see as positive, but unexamined masculinity- given the cultural norms- can be quite dangerous and damaging.

I think that all of us who identify in some way as masculine need to examine masculinity. I also think that those that identify as male or men have a responsibility of realizing just how pervasive male violence is, how damaging misogyny is, how male is overwhelmingly valued over female both in society in general as well as queer culture. You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things. You have a responsibility to recognize that. Just like me being a white person- when I am in the presence of people of color the space is whiter than it would be without me and I have white privilege. You can't just be here to get fluffed up and be told how manly you are. I am not saying anyone participating in this thread is doing this- it's the general you I am talking about.

[Darth Denkay]

Realizing that this is a question of personal preference...

We know that within our butch ranks we have female-identified, male-identified, other-identified; those who prefer male pronouns, those who prefer female pronouns, and those who couldn't care less. One word I use frequently with butches is 'bro'. I'm assuming that male-identified would be fine with this, but does this term feel erasing to some? I'd love to hear your collective thoughts on this.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Thanks Toughy and Red. My concern is that, as is pointed out in the video, violence and aggression is part of the cultural norm of masculinity- cultural norm being key. If we don't ever examine this how can we as masculine people be so sure we are just incorporating the positive aspects of masculinity, given how the dark side is so glorified? We see much of the macho attitudes and sexism alive and well in queer culture, and unfortunately domestic violence and abuse as well.

Yes there are differences in that most of us were raised as females and not necessarily socialized to be masculine. I do believe our own brands of masculinity are different because of this. However at the same time so many of us felt masculine and were drawn to masculinity from an early age, so I don't think we are immune from what our culture tells and shows us. Masculinity in and of itself I see as positive, but unexamined masculinity- given the cultural norms- can be quite dangerous and damaging.

I think that all of us who identify in some way as masculine need to examine masculinity. I also think that those that identify as male or men have a responsibility of realizing just how pervasive male violence is, how damaging misogyny is, how male is overwhelmingly valued over female both in society in general as well as queer culture. You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things. You have a responsibility to recognize that. Just like me being a white person- when I am in the presence of people of color the space is whiter than it would be without me and I have white privilege. You can't just be here to get fluffed up and be told how manly you are. I am not saying anyone participating in this thread is doing this- it's the general you I am talking about.

Bully, I am on my home desk top right now and this computer is about to hit the recycle bin. I could not run the video on this relic. I tried. Hence, I am going to use your above post to comment on "unexamined masculinity." The portions I agree with are in blue. The underlined portions is where I disagree or need further clarification.

"Having male identified people in it changes things." Are you talking about male privilege? Just to throw in another wrench to all of this; what if you pass as male consistently but are female identified butch? In my mind this could also be a potential example of perception that provides for male privilege.

Honestly, when I started to take T 18 months ago, something inside of my conciousness shifted. I became much more cognizant of the fact that I was going to be treated with more respect by many because of their perception. Frankly it took me many years to make the decision to take T. For me, I did not think taking T would make myself that much different from when I identified as simply a Butch. But as I move further into my transition I am looking much more closely at masculinity and what does that mean in the macro and micro.

I have hopes of being a hybrid model of a masculine entity that is the combination of all aspects of who I am. A Butch/Transman, socialized as a woman now presenting as masculine, "male."

The examination of masculinity now even more so will beongoing. I am treading new territory and have no intention of abandoning the Butch-Femme Queer community.

I realize my post is scattered. I'm tired but I think you have brought up a very important and timely topic for discussion.

[PapaC]

I took time to watch the video today... love google video! Luckily so does my brother, so I passed along "tough guise" for his evaluation as well.

Briefly?

it's fucking powerful. A very well done documentary, and hats off to the maker of it. I posted it on facebook as well. It's in my mind, a "must see" for all genders, even if the focus is on cisgendered boys and men.

If I was a cocky sob (which I'm not - honest!) I'd make every single questioning, pre-everything trans-masculine identified person watch that video and fuckin' learn something.

Peace!
-PapaC

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by PapaC

I took time to watch the video today... love google video! Luckily so does my brother, so I passed along "tough guise" for his evaluation as well.

Briefly?

it's fucking powerful. A very well done documentary, and hats off to the maker of it. I posted it on facebook as well. It's in my mind, a "must see" for all genders, even if the focus is on cisgendered boys and men.

If I was a cocky sob (which I'm not - honest!) I'd make every single questioning, pre-everything trans-masculine identified person watch that video and fuckin' learn something.

Peace!
-PapaC

Yep, it's very powerful. I am going to try to watch it again tomorrow.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by PapaC

I took time to watch the video today... love google video! Luckily so does my brother, so I passed along "tough guise" for his evaluation as well.

Briefly?

it's fucking powerful. A very well done documentary, and hats off to the maker of it. I posted it on facebook as well. It's in my mind, a "must see" for all genders, even if the focus is on cisgendered boys and men.

If I was a cocky sob (which I'm not - honest!) I'd make every single questioning, pre-everything trans-masculine identified person watch that video and fuckin' learn something.

Peace!
-PapaC

Kinda wish all mothers would make their sons watch it... Just like I wish all teenage boys had to read All's Quiet on the Western Front"

[Tommi]

Originally Posted by SyrJess

Kinda wish all mothers would make their sons watch it... Just like I wish all teenage boys had to read All's Quiet on the Western Front"

Can someone repost the link
I heard that it's going to be required reading before you get your high school diploma.

How misleading Thread Titles can be:

...only another Butch would understand. Pleeeaseeeeee I don't understand this turmoil. Reminds me of the TV shows where the gangs separate off while behind bars and condemn one another for being different.

We are a mere dot on the spectrum of this diversity rainbow.

AND TO THOSE POSTERS ABOVE , whether you know, accept me or not... It makes me heartsick to see us act like my Bio family did when they threw me away, and how society talked and tried to stomp out my light for 40 years.

I have fought to live as ME since I was 2 and a half. I do mean fought to live. I am one of the earlier Butch warriors here on this planet. Some of you know my life story, have met my bio famliy, and know the miracles of me still being alive, and being loved or rejected, I became ME, and don't need approval ratings.

I do know we should live, let live and appreciate every day, that we have the freedom to be here and to post to one another. Maybe, only when that freedom has been taken away, as mine had been, can we really understand, and extend the hand of friendship and acceptance to all.

Thanks for the respectful post shark, and to those who discovered the peaceful place called the Planet. I think I'm taking my toys and looking for another playground for now.

Tommi