Permission to propose

[Bard]

I asked my dad and Desd'd dad before I proposed..

[The JD]

Originally Posted by Bard

I asked my dad and Desd'd dad before I proposed..

What would you have done if the answer had been no?

I think that's what I'm having trouble wrapping my head around...

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by The JD

What would you have done if the answer had been no?

I think that's what I'm having trouble wrapping my head around...

If Mr weatherboi's Dad says no, I'm going to have to be honest and tell him to damn bad he's been branded, NO TAKE BACKS!

It's not really about his parents for me, it's courtesy and a ritual.

[ruffryder]

For me it's not about seeking permission but instead a blessing. In the past it was the mother that was approached . If i was to do it again with my current love it would be her mother also and maybe her step dad. Her bio father is deceased. She wouldn't ask my parents either or my gram that raised me because my mom and gram are deceased and my father is unknown to me. I would have probably told my family myself and with her presence like in the past i did.

Originally Posted by Tony

I did say "I believe women have better reasoning power than men." I stand by that but I should have added, IMO. That's what I believe these threads & forums are about; voicing & discussing opinions. The word stereotype has a negative connotation, which come to think of it, might make for a good thread in itself.
The differences, perceptions of opinions versus stereotyping.

I think it was Snow Who started a good thread about stereotypes of butches, femmes, trans, etc.. Anyone have the link?

[bright_arrow]

Originally Posted by The JD

What would you have done if the answer had been no?

I think that's what I'm having trouble wrapping my head around...

Bard said had hy dad said no, hy would of done it anyways, hy just wanted his blessing.

If my dad said no, hy would talk to him to find out why.

[macele]

i don't want to do anything that looks heterosexual when it comes to a relationship. some things are obviously a must. but asking a father, or mother, ... to marry? i don't think so. i just don't want the marriage thing, ... set up for man and woman, ... husband and wife. they don't want me to have it, ... why the hell should i want it! keep it. if "we" decide to "marry", i don't want heterosexual people there lol.

[BullDog]

Everyone has the right to choose which traditions they will follow and what fits in with their extended family dynamics.

This particular tradition of asking the father (only) for permission isn't something that feels good to me. For me it harkens to a time when women didn't get to make their own choices about who they could marry, and women had to defer to men being head of household and making all the important decisions without the wife/mother having input.

So for me, no, I wouldn't follow this even if I could.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Everyone has the right to choose which traditions they will follow and what fits in with their extended family dynamics.

This particular tradition of asking the father (only) for permission isn't something that feels good to me. For me it harkens to a time when women didn't get to make their own choices about who they could marry, and women had to defer to men being head of household and making all the important decisions without the wife/mother having input.

So for me, no, I wouldn't follow this even if I could.

Voice of reason.

Exactly.

[Kobi]

Asking for a womans hand in marriage is steeped, as Bully and Belle pointed out, from the days where women were seen as property and "asking" was more of a negotiation as to the terms of the transfer of ownership. In some cases/cultures, it was the groom offering payment in exchange for the bride. In others, it was the brides family providing payment in order to marry off a daughter.

The meanings of engagement/wedding traditions change thru the years and they have gone from practical and functional to being romanticized. Not sure what to call todays ways of doing things.

Did you know:

Engagement ring: The engagement ring represents the marriage purchase where the groom made a partial payment for the bride and represented his honorable intention.

Best man: Warriors who stole their wives needed a warrior to help them fight off the woman's family and prevent them from finding the couple.

Bride on the left: The bride's family is on the left and the grooms family is on the right during weddings because in warrior days, the groom held the bride in his left hand and fought off her family with his right hand as he stole her away.

Carrying bride: During the days of "Marriage by Capture," the bride was certainly not going to go peacefully into the bridegroom's abode; thus, she was dragged or carried across the threshold.

Honeymoon: When warrior grooms abducted their wives they would stay hidden with them for a month, or through all of the moon's changes so that when the family found them she would already be pregnant.

Bridal Shower: It is believed that the first bridal shower was for a poor couple who were not given a dowry because the groom was a miller. Instead of getting the dowry from the father, the miller's friends showered the bride with gifts. Or, it may come from Holland, when bride's father did not approve of the husband-to-be, he would not provide her with the necessary dowry. The bride's friends would therefore "shower" her with gifts so she would have her dowry and thus marry the man of her choice.

Shoes Tied on the Car Bumper - Brides' shoes once were considered to be symbols of authority and possession. They used to be taken from her when she was led to the wedding place, and given to the groom by her father, effecting the transfer of his authority to her husband and as a sign that the husband now had possession of her (and she couldn't run away). The new husband then tapped her on the head to show his new role as her master.

Incidentally, the ever-popular horn honking has its beginnings in the days when brides traveled in open carriages. They were an easy target for evil spirits, so defenders would use bells and firecrackers to scare them away.

I learn the most interesting things from participating on this site.

And, I have forgotten what the original question was. Can someone let me know when the prenuptial agreement thread starts?

[stephfromMIT]

desd-Other than our officiant being a UU minister, our weddings are quite similiar.

Kobi-VERY interesting info on traditions and their origins.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Asking for a womans hand in marriage is steeped, as Bully and Belle pointed out, from the days where women were seen as property and "asking" was more of a negotiation as to the terms of the transfer of ownership. In some cases/cultures, it was the groom offering payment in exchange for the bride. In others, it was the brides family providing payment in order to marry off a daughter.

The meanings of engagement/wedding traditions change thru the years and they have gone from practical and functional to being romanticized. Not sure what to call todays ways of doing things.

Did you know:

Engagement ring: The engagement ring represents the marriage purchase where the groom made a partial payment for the bride and represented his honorable intention.

Best man: Warriors who stole their wives needed a warrior to help them fight off the woman's family and prevent them from finding the couple.

Bride on the left: The bride's family is on the left and the grooms family is on the right during weddings because in warrior days, the groom held the bride in his left hand and fought off her family with his right hand as he stole her away.

Carrying bride: During the days of "Marriage by Capture," the bride was certainly not going to go peacefully into the bridegroom's abode; thus, she was dragged or carried across the threshold.

Honeymoon: When warrior grooms abducted their wives they would stay hidden with them for a month, or through all of the moon's changes so that when the family found them she would already be pregnant.

Bridal Shower: It is believed that the first bridal shower was for a poor couple who were not given a dowry because the groom was a miller. Instead of getting the dowry from the father, the miller's friends showered the bride with gifts. Or, it may come from Holland, when bride's father did not approve of the husband-to-be, he would not provide her with the necessary dowry. The bride's friends would therefore "shower" her with gifts so she would have her dowry and thus marry the man of her choice.

Shoes Tied on the Car Bumper - Brides' shoes once were considered to be symbols of authority and possession. They used to be taken from her when she was led to the wedding place, and given to the groom by her father, effecting the transfer of his authority to her husband and as a sign that the husband now had possession of her (and she couldn't run away). The new husband then tapped her on the head to show his new role as her master.

Incidentally, the ever-popular horn honking has its beginnings in the days when brides traveled in open carriages. They were an easy target for evil spirits, so defenders would use bells and firecrackers to scare them away.

I learn the most interesting things from participating on this site.

And, I have forgotten what the original question was. Can someone let me know when the prenuptial agreement thread starts?

Thanks Kobi, for pulling this information together.

I was poking around online last week and reading about the carry-over-threshold tradition, and learned that in addition to what you share above, the bride was carried because it was believed that if a bride tripped walking over the wheat thresh people kept at the door to minimize mud tracking, bad spirits would seize the moment to enter the home.

Apparently no one was worried about the groom tripping, or providing somehow, in the process of tripping, a way for evil spirits to take advantage as they seek access to a home or family or group of people.

A theme in many of these traditions is that women are weak links, among humans; that women are more vulnerable to doing and abetting evil. It's a misogynist view of women and prevalent in a lot of cultures.

**********

Other people have said this but I want to add that what I would do if I were getting married is pick and choose from all the traditions and go with whichever ones resonate for us or which we can re-invent, to fit my and my partner's values.

[Bard]

Originally Posted by The JD

What would you have done if the answer had been no?

I think that's what I'm having trouble wrapping my head around...

I have to say for me asking Desd' dad was more of a respect thing asking his and her mothers blessing on our union I love and respect her father so very much had he said no I would have asked why and we would have talked long and hard about what would be bothering him BUT I would have asked Desd and married her NO MATTER WHAT anyone said

My dad well I asked him if I could marry Desd cause he had asked me long ago not to get involved with anyone till Goose was adopted so that the EX could not use her against me

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by The JD

What would you have done if the answer had been no?

I think that's what I'm having trouble wrapping my head around...

I assume most people who do follow this ritual are already certain the answer is going to be "yes", so probably not much real risk there.

[bright_arrow]

While I understand it is an old ritual, I do like that hy asked both father's. My family adores hym and we are all close as is, but I think it just made it go smoother, if that makes sense? No surprises, no omgwtfnooooo responses.. Of course, it dampened the moment when I went to tell my family and they all said "Yep we know!"

I asked hym what hy would of said had either one of our father's said no, and hy said hy would not have asked me then, hy would of proved hy was worthy of marrying me. I thought that was pretty sweet (Of course, I would of said yes regardless!)

All in all I suppose I see it as a way of making sure everyone is on the same page and accepting, at least in our case. That, and I did not have to tell my extended family - my mom did that

Mrs. Coppah