A Question for Understanding

[EnderD_503]

I also just wanna say, after reading a few other posts, that I don't think wanting to be recognised as a transguy rather than being stealth means that you're less of a transguy. I definitely don't identify as gender neutral or third gender/sex (though I do think there are more than two sexes, that sex is more complicated than cismale/cisfemale and identify my own sex as transmale if someone asks).

It doesn't mean you're any less serious about being recognised as a guy...the problem is that society only wants to see cisguys as legitimate so it expects transguys to want to be exactly like cisguys and "pass" as them. I just don't want anyone to assume transguys who aren't stealth because they don't want to be are any less transguys than people who want to be stealth. Also, we shouldn't be seen as having had the "choice" to be transguys anymore than any other transguy or more than anyone who is cis female or cis male. I didn't choose to be a transguy anymore than a cisguy chooses to be a cisguy...but neither do I think that because I didn't have a choice that it's something I'm upset with or feel bad about. Just because you don't have a choice doesn't mean you aren't happy with who you are. People don't choose who they're attracted to either but doesn't mean they're unhappy about it (at least I'm not ). I do make the choice to be proud of who I am and not wanting to live stealth. It also shouldn't be assumed that transguys who are more open about who they are are no-op and/or no-ho. Depends on the person. Some of us just have/want surgery and don't want hormones, others just want hormones and don't want surgery, others of us want/have surgery and are also on T, others of us have been on hormones and then stopped etc. There's just as much diversity as with transguys who want to be entirely stealth and there's no one way to be a transguy.

What is making it easier for those of us who don't want to be stealth is that there is less control over our bodies by psychiatric institutions. Hormones are much easier to get (at least here) without a letter from a psychiatrist and there are more options as far as how to get surgery than there was in the past. Shrinks don't have as much power to gatekeep as they used to.

[Quintease]

I've been pondering this question as I don't really understand how a guy can look like a 'transman' rather than a 'man'. I've noticed there is a certain point in their transition where they look like men (or boys) and there is no going back from that. Even boys who stop taking their testosterone look like young men rather than transmen.

I guess some boys look for 'the look' when they're in queer spaces so they can recognise each other but that's just guesswork. From where I'm standing transguys don't 'look' different to any other man. Not all transguys look straight however, some most definitely look gay, some look queer and some attract both sexes regardless of how they look. I do know a guy who most definitely ID's as trans, but in public spaces, even in gay public spaces, he's taken as a cisgendered man.

[Hominid]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I also just wanna say, after reading a few other posts, that I don't think wanting to be recognised as a transguy rather than being stealth means that you're less of a transguy. I definitely don't identify as gender neutral or third gender/sex (though I do think there are more than two sexes, that sex is more complicated than cismale/cisfemale and identify my own sex as transmale if someone asks).

It doesn't mean you're any less serious about being recognised as a guy...the problem is that society only wants to see cisguys as legitimate so it expects transguys to want to be exactly like cisguys and "pass" as them. I just don't want anyone to assume transguys who aren't stealth because they don't want to be are any less transguys than people who want to be stealth. Also, we shouldn't be seen as having had the "choice" to be transguys anymore than any other transguy or more than anyone who is cis female or cis male. I didn't choose to be a transguy anymore than a cisguy chooses to be a cisguy...but neither do I think that because I didn't have a choice that it's something I'm upset with or feel bad about. Just because you don't have a choice doesn't mean you aren't happy with who you are. People don't choose who they're attracted to either but doesn't mean they're unhappy about it (at least I'm not ). I do make the choice to be proud of who I am and not wanting to live stealth. It also shouldn't be assumed that transguys who are more open about who they are are no-op and/or no-ho. Depends on the person. Some of us just have/want surgery and don't want hormones, others just want hormones and don't want surgery, others of us want/have surgery and are also on T, others of us have been on hormones and then stopped etc. There's just as much diversity as with transguys who want to be entirely stealth and there's no one way to be a transguy.

I'm pretty sure my post was at least one of the posts you are responding to. Please note that I inserted every qualifier and caveat I could to cover you, and explicitly said that my generalizations and potential scenarios would apply to NO ONE as an individual. But I do want to say that I in no way think anyone is "less" of a transman for any reason. I am not quantifying or qualifying anything - just trying to cover an incredibly vast array of possibilities for someone asking a question
The problem with language is that it's only representative, it's not the truth itself; at least on one level, but that opens up a whole different discussion. I tried very hard to qualify everything I said - but you are very specific, which puts you in the position of being mistaken - for instance, you say, " I do make the choice to be proud of who I am and not wanting to live stealth." You directly juxtapose being "stealth" with being proud. I am very proud. I am probably also what most would call "stealth". I am, in reality a transman. However, I do not identify as one personally. For me, it is a term that describes how I came to be seen as male, some physical attributes, and the fact that I lived as a dyke for a long time. How does one be "exactly like a cisguy"? There are just as many ways to be a cisguy ...
BTW, I don't live "stealth". MOST people you describe as "stealth" do not like that term. Most feel they are being perceived as who they are for the first time in their lives - it suggests hiding, when they feel that in fact they are finally being seen. I am who I am and people can assume what they want. I didn't change jobs or move - but after all this time some know, some don't, and none of it impacts who I am. Me, I'm just a guy, with a complicated history I do not reject or pretend was a mistake.
Some people DO choose to transition - to attach different pronouns, define differently than they had. I did. Surgery, coming out, hormones, name changes - all were very active and PITA choices. And there are MANY who CHOOSE not to transition and remain women, and continue to identify as women, as much as it irks them. I know three very well. They feel uncomfortable claiming to be male in any way even though they feel male, and feel they would have been more at ease living as male.
Rather than debate these particulars, and that's what they are, incredibly personal particulars, I think it's much better, more respectful of all our paths, to not play semantics. It could get very nasty and silly and tiresome - I did my best to qualify what I said, I said "some" everywhere I could, and again, indicated that there are as many ways to be male, and to be trans, as there are to be human. And by "third gender" I meant, something *other* than cis-male and cis-female. I would just like you to note that you were very specific, and made pronouncements for us all - not an upsetting thing because *I know what you mean*.

We should ALL be very careful not to pronounce the truth from our own limited and evolving perspectives.

[weatherboi]

Personally I wish that people would just speak for themselves when talking about identifying.It is a good way not to have to use qualifiers, supporting the idea that id's are personal experiences without the boundaries bestowed upon us by people that don't live our reality. I think this is the difference between being specific about one's experience and speaking for others.

[Hominid]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Personally I wish that people would just speak for themselves when talking about identifying.It is a good way not to have to use qualifiers, supporting the idea that id's are personal experiences without the boundaries bestowed upon us by people that don't live our reality. I think this is the difference between being specific about one's experience and speaking for others.

Agreed. I shouldn't have even tried to address that question! Stupid, stupid stupid (slapping head).