American Consulate Attack in Libya

[ruffryder]

Why do we have to take care of the rest of the world. Why cant we just bring our Americans home. Why do we even have our flag hanging in other countries. Why is there so much hate against America and our beliefs of freedom of speech, religion, etc. Why, Why, Why.. so many questions. *sigh* I keep feeling this is another war about to escalate once again for pretty much the same reasons. With beliefs and disagreements such as these, it seems to never end and people have to not only fight about it but bring out full blown war and attacks.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Why do we have to take care of the rest of the world. Why cant we just bring our Americans home. Why do we even have our flag hanging in other countries. Why is there so much hate against America and our beliefs of freedom of speech, religion, etc. Why, Why, Why.. so many questions. *sigh* I keep feeling this is another war about to escalate once again for pretty much the same reasons. With beliefs and disagreements such as these, it seems to never end and people have to not only fight about it but bring out full blown war and attacks.

Ruff-

I think I can answer to why there is hate toward America in a lot of other countries at this time.
I wouldn' characterize the disdain that some other cultures/countries/sects feel toward us based on our freedome of expression or beliefs. I think their disdain is much more centered around the idea that many Americans don't think twice about stomping on someone else's right to believe what they want in the name of "you don't know any better" and "our way is the only way".

It's very ethno and Euro-centric, the way we do things a lot of times.

I think that in certain Muslim-heavy countries, there is the perception that "those arrogant Americans" think they can tell the rest of the world what to do and when to do it. Because honestly? We've operated like that before. And we've done some shitty things like busting up into other countries under the guise of "we're looking for weapons" when we were really looking to pilfer oil supplies. That kind of dirty dealing is a stain on our reputation, but also leaves the impression with folks that we want what we want at any cost.

With that, even if President Obama doesn't want to operate in a shady way, the history of the American political system is still in the memories of the folks who have been a victim of it.

Now, the idea that a movie about Mohammad gives people the right to act a damn violent fool and kill folks is not only ridiculous but it is the same mentality that causes people to murder Gays, rape women, and commit violent acts of racism in the name of "what they believe in". It is fear-based, aggressive, mob-mentality behavior and it is very, very dangerous.

[Gráinne]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Ruff-

I think I can answer to why there is hate toward America in a lot of other countries at this time.
I wouldn' characterize the disdain that some other cultures/countries/sects feel toward us based on our freedome of expression or beliefs. I think their disdain is much more centered around the idea that many Americans don't think twice about stomping on someone else's right to believe what they want in the name of "you don't know any better" and "our way is the only way".

It's very ethno and Euro-centric, the way we do things a lot of times.

I think that in certain Muslim-heavy countries, there is the perception that "those arrogant Americans" think they can tell the rest of the world what to do and when to do it. Because honestly? We've operated like that before. And we've done some shitty things like busting up into other countries under the guise of "we're looking for weapons" when we were really looking to pilfer oil supplies. That kind of dirty dealing is a stain on our reputation, but also leaves the impression with folks that we want what we want at any cost.
With that, even if President Obama doesn't want to operate in a shady way, the history of the American political system is still in the memories of the folks who have been a victim of it.

Now, the idea that a movie about Mohammad gives people the right to act a damn violent fool and kill folks is not only ridiculous but it is the same mentality that causes people to murder Gays, rape women, and commit violent acts of racism in the name of "what they believe in". It is fear-based, aggressive, mob-mentality behavior and it is very, very dangerous.

I think it goes back farther than that, even, at the end of WWI when Great Britain, France and the U.S. cobbled together Iraq and many other countries without consideration of cultural, ethnic and religious differences. Yugoslavia was another example, in which it took a dictator to hold hostile factions together until it fell apart in a civil war.

Plus, our penchant in the 50's and 60's for setting up truly awful rulers (Saddam was one, the Shah of Iran was another) whose main qualification in our eyes was that they weren't communist. This was also true in SE Asia and in Central America, and even Cuba and the Dominican Republic.

It's a long, tragic story all around.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Why do we have to take care of the rest of the world. Why cant we just bring our Americans home. Why do we even have our flag hanging in other countries.

These attacks happened at either the American embassy (Egypt and Yemen) or an American consulate (Libya). We have flags flying in those and other countries because part of what nation states *do* is have embassies and consulates in other nations. It is part and parcel of diplomacy to have diplomatic staff permanently in that nation. While we may not recognize the importance of diplomatic relations with other nation states they are important. Having an embassy in another nation is so important that when we *don't* have an embassy one of two things are true: either we are in a state of war or we have broken off all diplomatic relations with that nation. An example of the first is what happened at the start of WW II. Immediately after Pearl Harbor the Japanese embassy in D.C. burned their code books and then got out of the US. The US closed its embassy and we did not reestablish diplomatic relations with Japan until after the war. In the latter case, we closed our embassy in Tehran, Iran, after our embassy was taken and hostages held with the full knowledge and support of the new Iranian government (the government following the overthrow of Shah Reza Pavlavi). We have not reopened that embassy and so we *still*, almost forty years after the fact, we don't have normalized relations with Iran.

Not having embassies in the world means not dealing with the rest of the world. That means international travel can become very interesting. It means doing business in foreign countries becomes much more difficult. We fly flags in other nations because in order to deal with those nations we have to have diplomatic staff there who can build relationships with the locals. The day we start closing embassies around the world is the day the world becomes a much more unstable place.

Why is there so much hate against America and our beliefs of freedom of speech, religion, etc. Why, Why, Why.. so many questions. *sigh* I keep feeling this is another war about to escalate once again for pretty much the same reasons. With beliefs and disagreements such as these, it seems to never end and people have to not only fight about it but bring out full blown war and attacks.

I do not think it is accurate to say that people hate America because of our beliefs in freedom of speech or religion. This is not to say that there are not people who oppose those ideas but I don't think there's good reason to believe that they hate America *because* of those core commitments. Rather, I think they just hate the idea, generally, of freedom of religion or they either hate or do not understand the idea of freedom of the press. Most nations do *not* have written into their constitutions the kind of expansive freedom of religious belief or speech enjoyed in the United States. In all too many nations, if the press says something one is justified in assuming that the *government* has said it because either the state runs the press or the state approves anything that is published. Such is not the case in the United States. And I think that a misunderstanding of people who may live under a different form of media regime than we do is probably inevitable.

Imagine you live in a nation where if it is printed or broadcast you know some state censor has given their blessing to whatever the utterance is. Then you find out that some filmmaker in America has put out a movie insulting to your religion. Working within the only frame you know, you assume that if some American filmmaker put out a movie, *someone* in the US government *must* have given it the official OK. I mean, *your* nation has a Ministry of Culture that approves movies so how can it be that the USA doesn't? So you're angry not just at the filmmaker but at the United States government since it must have approved the insulting film.

I think some variation of that understanding is at work now.

I would also suggest that much of the anger at America is due to her *policies*. Every time an Israeli soldier tosses a tear gas grenade at some protesters and the canister has a 'made in the USA' stencil on it, it makes people angry. Every time the United States speaks about 'freedom' and 'democracy' while simultaneously propping up some kleptocratic dictator (Mubarak of Egypt leaps to mind here) it makes people angry. We support Israel against the Palestinians no matter how egregious Israeli malfeasance might be. We support dictators because they are geostrategically convenient for us while telling their oppressed people that we stand for democracy and the right of peoples to live in liberty.

My point is that *long* before we get to "they hate us for our freedoms" there are much better explanations for why some people hate the United States.

That said, let me make a couple of points about the last 72 hours. While the protests in Egypt appear to have been, more or less, genuine expressions of outrage (as misplaced as I think they are) the protest and attack in Libya appears to have been planned. The Libyan people, despite what some on the American Left would have us believe, are actually *very* favorably disposed to Americans right now because it was American jets that swatted Gaddafi's planes and helicopters from the skies over Libya, allowing the rebels to overthrow their dictatorship. When an American pilot was shot down over Libya, the Libyan people rescued him and got him to safety. Yesterday, Libyans turned out to protest *against* the attack on the consulate and to mourn Chris Stevens because they knew he was on their side while he lived.

Cheers
Aj

[Greyson]

Medusa, thank you for stepping up and starting this thread. I too am disturbed by this latest round of events. Cairo, Libya, Yemen. I am confounded by the total lack of regard the fellow who made this film had for the potential consequences of his action.

I agree with Dreadgeek, Diplomacy is a necessity. There is no moving backwards and going into some sort of isolation. Our,(the USA) "interests" and security are inseprable from global events.

I was touched to see everyday people in Libya holding up signs telling America this tragedy was not the work of the people. I even saw one sign with an apology. The geopolitical situation is complex. I do make a concious effort to remember all people have families, loved ones of some sort, aspirations and dreams.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Medusa, thank you for stepping up and starting this thread. I too am disturbed by this latest round of events. Cairo, Libya, Yemen. I am confounded by the total lack of regard the fellow who made this film had for the potential consequences of his action.

I agree with Dreadgeek, Diplomacy is a necessity. There is no moving backwards and going into some sort of isolation. Our,(the USA) "interests" and security are inseprable from global events.

I was touched to see everyday people in Libya holding up signs telling America this tragedy was not the work of the people. I even saw one sign with an apology. The geopolitical situation is complex. I do make a concious effort to remember all people have families, loved ones of some sort, aspirations and dreams.

Seeing the sign from Libyans apologize touched me deeply. Too often, we Americans assume that the rest of the world is either one way or another way and the reality is far more complicated than that. That the Libyan people wanted to let the American people know that the attackers did not speak for them and did not enjoy their confidence or support moved me. Provided that we are cautious and restrained in finding the people who attacked our embassy I think that we will have made friends with the Libyan people for a while. My hope is that any actions we take will be limited and focused *only* on those armed groups that were responsible. We *must* answer this attack on our soil, however and it is a well-respected tenet of international relations that the embassy is the soil of that nation.


Cheers
Aj

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Seeing the sign from Libyans apologize touched me deeply. Too often, we Americans assume that the rest of the world is either one way or another way and the reality is far more complicated than that. That the Libyan people wanted to let the American people know that the attackers did not speak for them and did not enjoy their confidence or support moved me. Provided that we are cautious and restrained in finding the people who attacked our embassy I think that we will have made friends with the Libyan people for a while. My hope is that any actions we take will be limited and focused *only* on those armed groups that were responsible. We *must* answer this attack on our soil, however and it is a well-respected tenet of international relations that the embassy is the soil of that nation.


Cheers
Aj

God, me too, Aj. It serves as such a deep reminder that the people of Libya are not the Borg collective of extremists as some of our American news outlets would have us believe. They are human beings just as scared of war as we are. And yes, they have their crazy assholes just like we do.

I cringe to think of how we look to the Muslim community with the uprising of overt racism with regards to our own POTUS. White folks all over tv hanging the President in effigy and spouting the most hateful and ignorant shit imagineable. How in the hell are other countries able to respect us when our own people do things so disgusting.

My hope and wish is that many people see the photos circulating on Facebook and that it sparks their humanity toward "they are more like me than I thought" and away from "Let's get those terrorist Muslims".

[Kätzchen]

I have a Muslim friend who lives in the Middle East and also a dear married lady friend's husband who has been serving on the front line (Adriatic coast). I am deeply worried for both of them (and of course, all of them) who are involved in the newest outbreak of conflict.

This is heartbreaking for Arabs and Muslims overseas in the Middle East, here in America, and in other places of the world too.

My heart goes out to Arab and Muslim people who suffer persecution and are disenfranchised members of societies because they are being denied equitable access to communal, life sustaining resources and opportunity to lead as peaceful a life as possible.

[Words]

I was in Israel at the time of the Twin Tours attack and found it very interesting how the Palestinians differentiated between the American Government and the American people. On the one hand, yes, there was a feeling of 'FINALLY, someone has dared stand up to the American Government and show it that, in its arrogance, its completely forgotten that it's not invincible'. On the other, however, there was genuine sadness at what doing this had cost in terms of human life. In other words, they saw the attack on the US Government as something completely different from the attack on the American people in general and those who were killed/injured in particular.

I know it's hard for Americans to believe or understand that, but I witnessed it first hand and can attest to it - with a very few exceptions - being true.

Words

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Words

I was in Israel at the time of the Twin Tours attack and found it very interesting how the Palestinians differentiated between the American Government and the American people. On the one hand, yes, there was a feeling of 'FINALLY, someone has dared stand up to the American Government and show it that, in its arrogance, its completely forgotten that it's not invincible'. On the other, however, there was genuine sadness at what doing this had cost in the terms of human life. In other words, they saw the attack on the US Government as something completely different from the attack on the American people in general and those who were killed/injured in particular.

I know it's hard for Americans to believe or understand that, but I witnessed it first hand and can attest to it - with a very few exceptions - being true.

Words

I think it is terribly sad that most Americans don't realize that distinction. On 9/11 I was teaching at a business school in Portland and I had students asking me why this had happened and why people in Palestine seemed so pleased with it. I told them that I wouldn't answer their question no that day but that I would try to explain it on Friday when things had calmed down. That night I almost lost my job giving the following explanation. I told them:

Imagine that Mexico annexes the West Coast of the United States and creates a new nation calling itself Northern Mexico. We are all displaced and are now second class citizens on the lands that our fathers and their fathers before them toiled on. The Mexican government has the backing of Canada in this endeavor such that we know, with the certainty of things that have actually happened, that should we step out of line the whole weight and force of the Canadian military will fall down upon around us. How long does it take you to start hating Mexicans and Canadians? I then explained that in this thought experiment, California, Oregon and Washington were the Palestinians, Mexico was Israel and Canada was the United States.

I went on to explain that this did not justify the attacks but it explained why Palestinians seemed celebratory that it had happened.

As it turns out, two other night teachers--two of us veterans--had independently done something similar in our classes that same night. The head honcho of our campus took us all into her office that Monday and laid into us hard, culminating in a "if you don't like the United States you can leave".

At those words Bob, a retired Air Force officer (I think he'd made Colonel) jumped up out of his chair and in his very solid voice challenged our boss saying, "You served when and where?" To which our boss replied, "I was never in the military, Bob." At which point he took her to the woodshed saying, "Well then, I will thank you never to question my patriotism or the patriotism of this young lady (pointing at me) our years wearing a uniform on your behalf paid for our being able to say what we want about this matter." With that he turned on his heel and walked out of the door.

I always respected Bob but in that moment, I loved him.

Cheers
Aj

[Martina]

I know that most Muslims do not hate Americans. But I do think we have a very questionable history in the regions -- North Africa, the Middle East and Central Asia. There are reasons that some ordinary people support Al Qaeda and other extremist organizations.

I want us out of Iraq and Afghanistan. I understand that Al-Qaeda has infiltrated -- deliberately -- the Afghan police force, and that the murders of U.S. service men and women are not an expression of Afghan popular sentiment. I also respect the efforts of Afghani civil servants to re-vet police and armed service recruits. I KNOW that there are efforts being made on the part of Afghan nationals, Egyptian nationals and others to keep citizens of other nations safe.

NEVERTHELESS, I am tired of hearing of the senseless deaths. And I truly think they are senseless. I no longer think that U.S. influence in Afghanistan is salutary in any respect. It's time to go.

I am happy that both Obama and Romney have agreed to the 2014 deadline. It can't be too soon as far as I am concerned.

Re Libya, of course we should continue to have a diplomatic presence there. Also in Egypt and Yemen. But we need to provide better security for our people. When the risk is too great, we need to pull them out, as we have in the past in a number of different circumstances.

My understanding is that Al Qaeda controls or is influential across that corridor between northern Mali and southern Libya -- including southern Algeria and northern Niger. I don't know if it's a stronghold, but they are very active there. And we know they have control of areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan.

We aren't going to change that on the ground. Economic and cultural change, supported, we hope, by U.S. diplomatic efforts -- that is what we can hope will aid residents of those areas to create healthy social and political change. But we need to get the hell out of Afghanistan and keep our people safe around the world.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Martina

I know that most Muslims do not hate Americans. But I do think we have a very questionable history in the regions -- North Africa, the Middle East and Central Asia. There are reasons that some ordinary people support Al Qaeda and other extremist organizations.

I want us out of Iraq and Afghanistan. I understand that Al-Qaeda has infiltrated -- deliberately -- the Afghan police force, and that the murders of U.S. service men and women are not an expression of Afghan popular sentiment. I also respect the efforts of Afghani civil servants to re-vet police and armed service recruits. I KNOW that there are efforts being made on the part of Afghan nationals, Egyptian nationals and others to keep citizens of other nations safe.

My son's last overseas term, before he got out of the Army, was in Afghanistan. It will be a good day when we leave that nation. I once read that Afghanistan is where imperial powers go to learn humility. I hope our foreign policy elites are more circumscribed after our experiences there. I supported the invasion of Afghanistan because they harbored people who attacked us instead of turning them over. I did not support our decade long occupation of that nation and I am convinced that the Iraq war will go down as one of the truly spectacular blunders of foreign policy ever.

NEVERTHELESS, I am tired of hearing of the senseless deaths. And I truly think they are senseless. I no longer think that U.S. influence in Afghanistan is salutary in any respect. It's time to go.

Past time. We should have gone in on '01, found Bin Laden and his followers, captured or killed them, and then left. Instead we did the stupid thing.

I am happy that both Obama and Romney have agreed to the 2014 deadline. It can't be too soon as far as I am concerned.

Given that the GOP has gone insane and Romney's general fecklessness I don't know that he would abide by the 2014 timeline. Keep in mind that his party has gone *so* insane that they disagreed with the 2011 timeline Bush the Younger negotiated with the Maliki government in Iraq. I mean, there are GOP foreign policy hacks who are saying that SOFA (Status Of Forces Agreement) or no SOFA we should have stayed in Iraq. That this would be an act of aggressive war appears to make no difference to them. Since the Afghanistan SOFA requires us to leave in 2014 I fear that a Romney presidency (which, blessedly, I think is safely in the improbable column) could see us trying to hang on when we no longer have any buy-in from the local government for us to stay.

Re Libya, of course we should continue to have a diplomatic presence there. Also in Egypt and Yemen. But we need to provide better security for our people. When the risk is too great, we need to pull them out, as we have in the past in a number of different circumstances.

Agreed. I think we have a window of opportunity with Libya and, quite honestly, I'm rather pleased with how Obama has handled Egypt. Instead of doing the normal thing and propping up Mubarak, he recognized it was time to make good our claims to care about democracy and that it was time for the dictator to go. Then, when the Egyptian people did what anyone familiar with the region might have predicted and voted in a populist government in the form of the Muslim Brotherhood, instead of saying that the election was rigged because we didn't like the outcome, simply said that the Egyptian people had made their choice. That was the harder tack. I know that he has taken heat for that but really, that's how it works. Democracy is responsiveness to the popular will and if that popular will brings forth a government that is antithetical to our values or has geopolitical interests that conflict with ours, so be it.


Cheers
Aj

[Kobi]

Tragic and horrible news events like this make me start twitching these days.

One thing the Bush-Cheney regime taught me was to not be consumed by the surface stuff in horrible, tragic events. It taught me to take a step back, and look and keep looking and keep listening.

I see lots of disturbing stuff here. I see a "film" being blamed for this starting.
This "film" has reportedly been circulating the net for weeks. So, why did it take so long for a reaction to develop?

Why is it that attacks in Yemen and in Egypt involve smashing windows, burning cars, and hurling stones while the initial attack in Libya was a military style attack with guns, mortar, and grenades? Kind of odd eh?

There are reports coming out about the film maker himself. Associated Press originally reported the film maker was a man named Sam Bacile, an Israeli Jew. Now, there are reports that the film maker may actually be someone named Nakoula Basseley Nakoula aka Nicola Bacily, Erwin Salameh and others according to Federal court papers. He is described as a "California Coptic Christian convicted of financial crimes who acknowledged his role in managing and providing logistics for the production." Story here. Hmmm, interesting.

Part of me also thinks....in a close US Presidential election, who gets the upper hand in a tragedy like this? Sitting Pres always gets the glory unless something goes really really wrong.

And, I am not saying the Pres or the government, per se, has any part in this. What I am thinking is there are many well connected, well financed people with much at stake in the outcome of this election on both sides of the aisle.

And, I also look for what else is going on that the people might need to either be distracted from or might be in need of some kind of convincing. And I find this:


"The White House will deliver to Congress a report on possible automatic spending cuts on Friday, spokesman Jay Carney said on Thursday.

The spending cuts would go into effect under a process called sequestration if lawmakers cannot reach a deal on preventing them by the end of the year. President Barack Obama is required under law to specify how funding for specific programs would be affected.

Cuts are expected to total $109 billion in 2013, to be split among defense and non-defense programs."

Well, kind of hard to consider military cuts if we have a "problem" to contend with. A "problem" to contend with would be justification of expanding the deficit even more. Expanding the deficit would impact the weak economic recovery that is sputtering already. A sputtering economy may need another whopper of a stimulus program. Funny how things can snowball sometimes.

I expect as more and more info becomes available, things might get clearer.....or not.

The surface stuff is scary enough. The below the surface stuff is even scarier.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Medusa

God, me too, Aj. It serves as such a deep reminder that the people of Libya are not the Borg collective of extremists as some of our American news outlets would have us believe. They are human beings just as scared of war as we are. And yes, they have their crazy assholes just like we do.

I cringe to think of how we look to the Muslim community with the uprising of overt racism with regards to our own POTUS. White folks all over tv hanging the President in effigy and spouting the most hateful and ignorant shit imagineable. How in the hell are other countries able to respect us when our own people do things so disgusting.

My hope and wish is that many people see the photos circulating on Facebook and that it sparks their humanity toward "they are more like me than I thought" and away from "Let's get those terrorist Muslims".

Since you mentioned the Borg collective, I wanted to run something past y'all. I'm writing a blog post for Skepchick and since this incident was on my mind I wrote about it. In it I said this about Mittens and I'm curious if the imagery 'works' for people (relevant bit in italics):

Mittens might have chosen to leave it at the customary expressions of condolences and outrage at the attacks. Nothing wrong with that. He had a chance to show that he was human and not the product of a particularly wild night between a member of the Borg and a Ferengi wherein they got their freak on and he was the blessed and unintended result.


I'm just curious what people's reactions are to that last bit.

Cheers
Aj

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Since you mentioned the Borg collective, I wanted to run something past y'all. I'm writing a blog post for Skepchick and since this incident was on my mind I wrote about it. In it I said this about Mittens and I'm curious if the imagery 'works' for people (relevant bit in italics):

Mittens might have chosen to leave it at the customary expressions of condolences and outrage at the attacks. Nothing wrong with that. He had a chance to show that he was human and not the product of a particularly wild night between a member of the Borg and a Ferengi wherein they got their freak on and he was the blessed and unintended result.


I'm just curious what people's reactions are to that last bit.

Cheers
Aj

That is a very apt sketch of Mittens! Although I wonder if he is more "Borg Queen meets Data"?
But I guess Data's way of thinking is way too logical for a Mittens comparison.

[~ocean]

r we all forgetting this is all beacuse of someones ignorance.. insulting the muslims on u tube.. the person who started all of this should be punished as well..

[Martina]

There is no excuse for this violence. I am sure that many Muslims were offended, but the people charging our embassies are probably those with a political agenda.

I do not care about the film. Last I heard it was a Coptic Christian behind it. That's an old fight. There are always going to be religious folks offending each other. That's no excuse for killing. Egyptians Muslims have been, IMO, persecuting Christians ever since Mubarak was ousted. They were before, but it has gotten worse. I try to read more objective sources on this. I know there are a lot of right wing assholes who try to exploit every incident. Point is that this is an old fight. And someone is always going to do something. I don't think the point is the film. The point is the violence.

Maybe that makes me very western or just an old lady. But I don't give a rat's ass about the film. I have no doubt it was offensive. So? Lodge a protest. Fight for laws that address such issues. Make your own film. I get feeling helpless. I am sure it's more offensive to be insulted by the people you see as having more power than you, a culture you see as potentially a danger to your own. Fight back in a way that can make a difference. This sure is not it.

But I don't think most of these people were losing their minds with rage and lashing out. I think they were extremists looking for an excuse.

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/...-us-ambassador

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by ~ocean

r we all forgetting this is all beacuse of someones ignorance.. insulting the muslims on u tube.. the person who started all of this should be punished as well..

Ocean;

I found your statement chilling.

I have to ask three questions which I'll front load and then expound on. Who should do the punishment? What should the punishment be? What *crime* has he committed?

Each one of these questions is important and I'm taking you at your word that you believe he really should be punished. Should the US government punish him? If so, for what crime? Making a hateful video that insults this or that group isn't a crime in the United States. If it were, then D.W. Griffith would have gone to jail for "Birth of a Nation" which was horrifically racist. The person who made this film has a Constitutionally protected right to do so and can only be punished for doing so by our government under the most extreme circumstances. Are you ready to see Dan Savage driven off the air or out of the newspapers because I guarantee you that if we punish this guy for his insulting Muslims then we're going to, if only for the sake of consistency, punish Savage for insulting Christians.

Perhaps you think he should be punished by the people in Libya or Egypt or Yemen? If that is the case there's a word for that--it's called a lynching. Are you really going to sit there and say you are advocating mob violence? Perhaps you think we should turn him over to the legal authorities of a Muslim-majority nation. If so, again, on what grounds and do you want to open *that* can of worms? Are you prepared to turn over Salman Rushdie to, say, Pakistan which has blasphemy laws? Rushdie's "Satanic Verses" had him living under a fatwa for two decades and if he were turned over to the Pakistani courts he could be tried and put to death for violating Pakistan's *blasphemy* laws. If you turn over the maker of this film, whoever he turns out to be, you have to turn over Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali who has also written and made utterances that could have her tried for blasphemy in any country that still has such laws on their books.

And then, what should the punishment be? Should he have jail time or should he be executed? These are all questions that are *inescapably* raised by your statement. While I understand that it is emotionally satisfying to shout for his head on a pike, don't you think that we should resist that urge?

I'm not defending his movie, I'm not even defending him because I think he made a movie that was bigoted with the intention of inflaming anti-American sentiment abroad and anti-Muslim sentiment in the USA. But that is not a *crime*, it is simply odious behavior. I am defending a principle and it is this: people have a right to make utterances that I find offensive and wish that they wouldn't make. Hell, I'll go so far as to say that, at times, I wish they didn't have the *right* to make those utterances but that is me in the heat of emotions. Today the government can shut down the speech of someone we all think is odious, tomorrow they can shut down the speech of someone we all admire, the day after that they can shut down *our* speech.

I am sympathetic to the protesters right up until they set foot on embassy grounds. But I do not think we should let ourselves be tempted to go down the road of censorship. There are people, fellow countrymen of mine in the USA, who think the very *existence* of this web site and every single word posted on it is a deep offense to their religion. They are free to blog about it, write songs about it, find the ISP that hosts the site and stand outside holding signs from now until the sun expands in a few billion years and vaporizes the Earth. But once we go down the road of censorship, they will shut this site down because it offends their religion and then, when we protest because our site was shut down, they will have us arrested for offending their religion because we protested their action. And when people speak up for us in solidarity they *too* will be arrested for insulting the religion of the censors.

You can tell when someone really believes in a right, it's actually rather easy. Ask them if they believe that right extends to the person or group they most oppose. If that person answers no, they don't really believe in that right on principle, they're simply advocating their self-interest. The easiest thing in the world for someone here to say is "I think that queer people should be able to write, speak and publish as they please". That tells us nothing about whether the speaker believes in free speech. The person who really believes in free speech is the one who will say "I wish this person did not have this right for their every word and utterance is odious to me and were it up to me, they would never be allowed to say such things. Fortunately, it's not up to me." That person believes in free speech down to the very atoms in the marrow of their bones for they are willing to pay the price of free speech, which is having to put up with speech you find repulsive.

Where do you stand?

Cheers
Aj

[Prudence]

What a mess.