June Cleaver : Femme Friend or Femme Foe

[JustJo]

Thank you for starting this thread Snow. I've been reading the developing conversation in the other zone and didn't feel like I should be jumping in there.

Anyway...I have all kinds of weird, twisted up feelings about that 1950s housewife ideal. I had an opposite upbringing from a lot of women...my mother was vehemently (and angrily) feminist and all of the messages that I got as a girl were that all traditional female roles and activities were wrong, bad, stupid and anyone with half a brain should avoid them at all costs. She wanted me to take shop, not home economics, and play sports, not play with dolls. I was forbidden from taking typing class, and was not allowed to own a Barbie or play dress up.

The problematic part, for me, is that all of my natural inclinations pulled me in traditional female roles. Not because I got that messaging on TV (we didn't own one) and not because I was getting it at home or even in my immediate friend circles. It was just there....internal....from as early as I could remember.

My first career goal (at about age 8) was to be a hairdresser. My second thought (when that was shot down and criticized mightily) was to be a teacher....a middle school home economics teacher. I might as well have been saying I wanted to be a mass murderer.

Roll forward through many years and a variety of life experiences....and I'm a mixture. I've been an independent, self-supporting woman my entire life. First job at 15, moved away from home, put myself through college, single mom, more college, more work, three failed marriages (to bio men....duh....slow learner). Out in the world I am strong, independent, pushy and professional. I make my own decisions, run my own life....and good luck to anyone who tries to belittle, head pat or condescend to me.

When it comes to personal, intimate relationships....much of me swings back to my natural inclination. I want to cook my love's favorite meals and do little things to make them happy. I'll clean house, give backrubs....and I really honestly do want them to take care of the yard and the maintenance of the house and my car. Some would say I am living that old stereotype in my relationships....after all, I want my partner to take the lead in bed....and, yes, I want to be babied and honeyed and taken care of....that neglected little girl inside wants to be cradled and protected and treasured.

It's not kink...but one of the things I love absolutely the most is to be cooking (yes, generally in a dress and barefoot) in the kitchen, and have my love walk up behind me, wrap their arms around me, kiss my neck and try to interfere with my cooking.

Does that make me somehow less femme, less independent, less strong.....hell no.

Both of those are parts of me....the strong, independent, pushy broad....and the girl who wants to be the doting wife. There's no conflict, and one doesn't invalidate the other.

I think where we get into trouble is when we add a "should" or a "better" in there somewhere. For me there is no "should" for how anyone should behave (with the exception of hopefully having some kind of character and moral compass)....and no lifestyle or way of being is better or worse than any other. If we are glorifying June Cleaver as the ideal for ALL women....then I call bullshit. If you (general you) choose to glorify her as YOUR personal ideal...then have a good time rocking that apron and heels.

[The_Lady_Snow]

How did society/this forum come to that conclusion?


I am a firm believer that the way women are portrayed in media is the downfall for many of us who don't fall into the conclusions/opinions/impositions that people place on woman/Femme.

Sexism, Mysoginy and oppression have a key role in the boxing of women. When we come interact be it real time or in online situations some of that bleeds into our tapestry. It's engrained in us and it takes a lot of work (if you choose to) to get to a point of hey this is something I am ok with or hey this is something I am not ok with.


I also feel that people want women to stay quiet (look at our Politicians) and while some of us are ok and happy with that box others of us aren't going to be.

We just gotta figure out when having these discussions be they in our personal hoola hoop (an ArweNism) or not that we do so in mind that we're all going to roll differently and that as long as we DO NOT impose our stuff on others we can all dismantle all the stuff that comes with the June Cleaver phenomenon.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I want to share that when searching for a picture of June Cleaver there wasn't one that really tells anything about "June" herself other than gender imposed markers.

Hair, perfectly prestine at all times

Make up, modest

Clothing, A dress heels and an apron

The apron, it's in at least 80% of the pictures of June if not more though the apron could cover her hips to top of knee to full frontal covering.


Shoes, a heel always a heel

Pearls, earings, bracelet, 2 string necklace

I had to think about it and ask myself:

we really have no clue who this woman is, other than wife, mother and cook.


It's interesting, disturbing and a little sad. It's rough for me as a woman to have a woman reduced to nothing but that, and then I understand that if one is into objectification then how hot it can be and is.

I can't for myself do the servitude scene, that particular role isn't appealing to me because it's not natural since I can't begin to understand that I must submit.

[Beloved]

I can't comment on June Cleaver because I never could stand to watch that show. But I think the 50's are way overrated. I would NOT want to go back to that era. As Bully, Princess Belle, and others were stating, it was a time of great oppression for anyone who wasn't a heterosexual white male. "The good ol' days" are a myth.

[thedivahrrrself]

Ah, the 50's - love the fashions, leave everything else.

<-- still doesn't know exactly who June Cleaver is

[The_Lady_Snow]

What is the attraction?


I am unsure, if I had to guess I would have say that it's the nurturing (cooking, cleaning, doing the mom thing, overly attentive wife role. I can see how these things would be appealing if one was in the dynamic where these specifics were desired.


As a woman who can't identify in this manner I don't like it, it's not for me and I find it to be exploiting, dismissing, erasing of "June". I want to know more about June Cleaver what she thinks, who she hangs out with, what's her favorite color, and does want to beat her kids asses when they are assholes.

She's (June) is one dimensional and my mind is like WHAT!!! It does this because women aren't one dimensional were vast endless compartments of variety.

It's a double edged sword for me, it makes me go huh, I can see how that works and yet it tugs the very core of what makes me Snow when I see her compared to or elevated to Femme personification.

[easygoingfemme]

Interesting discussion.
I'll start with saying it never would have crossed my mind to compare myself/shoot for a June Cleaver type life, nor would I have thought that in identifying as femme I might somehow be expected to.

I have, however, had other thoughts about what it meant to be femme, and it's something that made me resist that label for years. (didn't stop me from being weak in the knees over the butches, but that's another story). When I was coming out and getting established in the community, The femme role was taught to me as more of a weakness, a less than, or a fashion statement that I didn't understand, relate to, or want. So I just did my thing and was just... me- somewhere in the middle I guess.

As for the power dynamic and the Cleaver "ideal", that's something I have always rejected. I watched my mom try to live that life and I would argue her about it- to stop packing lunches and trying to make everything "as it should be" when she obviously wasn't happy doing so and she was not being appreciated, especially by my father.

One thing I love about the planet is that it helped me deeply validate that I can be my own independent stubborn person, and at the same time be all about that which is the magic of the butch-femme-dance. And I can be my own femme in that dance as I have created her. That we all have our own definition of our label and we respect how each other walk what we have chosen and what feels *right* to us.

A few years ago I found myself up to my ears in a relationship that had been founded on complete equality and over the course of years had diminished into a vastly different picture where I had become, in essence, a housewife. Mind you I still worked and financially supported myself, but I was not an equal person in relationship to my partner and there were major expectations that I was going to be the one doing, well, the June Cleaver jobs, and that I was to accept whatever my partner wanted to do whenever she wanted to do it. When it became clear to me that we weren't going to find our footing back to equality, I ended the relationship. It took a year to get there, we both fought the end in our own ways, and it meant leaving my home and starting all over with a teenager in tow, but it was not a dynamic I could have ever lived with because I was being disrespected on so many levels. FOR ME, that role in a relationship would never work.

So that's my .02 on the issue. I think it's something that so many women face, not just in our community, not even close. I think for some women, it works. It is what is *right* for them. But if it's not what's right for both parties, I can't imagine either person in the relationship being happy with it. On the flip side of this, I would never be able to be happy in a relationship where a partner of mine was not living a fulfilling life, especially if they were not being fulfilled because of a dynamic that existed in our relationship.

THANK YOU for bringing this up!

Love the BFP.

[Medusa]

See! I can get alllllll up into some submission and slap on an apron and heels and balance a pie delicately on a plate while serving it in that oh-o-dainty way. That way that says "Oh, aren't I just the tiniest little thing!"

But it's part of playtime. Until it's not.

I'm all about serving and most of the time that has nothing to do with submission. I like to make other people feel good. I like to make food for other people. My payoff is a sense of satisfaction so in that regard, I can see how adopting that "PowerJune" persona (role-play) works for folks if that's their thing!

I can see how the part of the June Clever idealism where she can perfectly present everything is super attractive. I can see the doting caretaker part being attractive.

I find that attractive in other people, Butches, Femmes, and Transmen alike. I like that (consensual) level of attention and I like to give that level of attention (consensually) as well.

I wonder if folks who really identify with the "50s housewife" (and I am sometimes one of them) are teasing out the parts that are about perfection and caretaking? I know I get especially pleased with myself knowing that I work 50 hours a week, go to school full time, maintain this site with the help of the other Mods, keep a clean house, cook dinners, and do all of that while washing my ass on a schedule and maintaining a cheery attitude. One of my girlfriends at work calls me "Martha Stewart Superwoman" because she says I do it all while looking good.
I don't do it ALL but I appreciate that she is recognizing how much energy I am putting into things.

Anyway, I'm rambling.

Great thread!

[The_Lady_Snow]

3. Is this part of your kink?



No, but I can't say I wouldn't role play "kept woman"








4. Is it edge play for you if kink is involved?


I would see this as edge play if it the two participants were pushing/exploring boundaries they never have.






5. Is it a power dynamic?




I think it can be, in my personal dynamic I would not be like the stereotypical June because well I happen to like being the oppressor not the oppressed. When I speak of this I am talking about consensual power dynamic exchanges.




5. Does it get your juices flowing?


Pearls do, I believe this is my objectifier compartment there's something about pearls....