What attracts you to Ftms ......

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by DMW

Brutal, i read this and i had to stop right there...because i have an issue with a word that you used in your post.Shame. One word. I did not want to respond to your post here, in public, how i felt or why i was bothered by it.
First, because i didn't (and don't now) want to hurt your feelings, or embarrass you, or take away from the true heartfelt feelings that you had to share with everyone here. I thank you for what you shared.

Two, because it is so personal and i appreciate how difficult it can be to open up to a public forum. Lastly, i wanted other people to hear the important parts of your message and what you had to convey and i didn't want to stir the pot unecessarily. You said it so well and i didn't
want to take away from the positive response that you received or draw away from that attention. (just for my beef with the one word.) I still don't want the attention or the work it takes to follow up on posts.

I share many similar feelings. I will not claim them to be the same as yours because i want to be clear that these are just my personal feelings.

it is a fact, for me, that the denial of my past is not congruent with the whole of who i really am today. Therefore, for me, it can be such a struggle, sometimes, to whip my cock out to perfect strangers and then be frustrated as to why the hell it should matter to anyone other than a woman i would be intimate with. In some cases it does matter.i.e. for personal safety...is one reason. There are different reasons why i do come out to the public.

However, it usually has to be decided or when and if i feel that it is necessary. The word shame bothers me because I personally am not ashamed of who i was as a butch or a girl growing up. nor, am i ashamed of being an FTM. I wasn't in control of how i was born
I don't believe you are ashamed either because of what you posted. And i am not going to assume that you are ashamed that you were once female.
I am not sure.

Shame is not a good word to use. Nor, is it a good feeling. To me, the word shame implies blame. As if, i should be ashamed of who i once was because i was female. And to be ashamed of who i was...would imply that i should be ashamed of who i am now.
In addition, shame could imply that i have done something wrong. And i have not done anything wrong when it comes to me and my own evolution. And i wholeheartedly refute that with a passion. And to be honest, sometimes this is reason enough to come out to the public or a person. Also, being female is not something to be ashamed of either. So, that also has to be explained and defended. It isn't easy either.

Embarrassed or shy to come out to the public or to a person...is another word and emotion entirely.

I hope that I have not offended you by sharing my feelings here, if i have...i will apologize in advance. And thank you for sharing Brutal. I just don't want you to be ashamed or to own that shame. It is not yours to own. Nor mine.

DMW

And talk about derailing a thread...i have drerailed this thread myself. SHeeet.

I know I'm not Brute and I know my brain is scrambled BUT.....lol


The shame he was talking about is not general. It's specific to certain...things that have happened TO him in his journey to him.

I'll leave it at that I just thought that might help understand it wasn't shame of the journey. He may have more to say after he parks his truck.



....must shut up julie!!!

[girl_dee]

Just read back a few pages and i've noticed (and not just in this thread) that when the old *go post in your own thread* comes out is only when something is posted that is not agreed upon or when isms are called out.

Again not just this thread and just an observation.

[Hominid]

The reason I rarely, if ever get involved in threads like this - or even bother to read through them is this: it is f-ing impossible to qualify what you have to offer of *yourself* without offending someone. In fact, the qualifying is tedious.

Obviously people speak only from their own experience, as themselves.

And it's a forum, meaning anyone who feels s/he has something to contribute should. Some people are a-holes. Some are misunderstood. Some are early in h/is process, or young, or insecure, and project their own "shoulds", even inadvertently, and although it is judgmental, the person hasn't the capacity to recognize it.

While semantics and language are important, it is equally important to understand from where a person is coming rather than to fixate on wording.

All I really know is it's tiresome when a conversation about a complex subject ends up with people quoting, quoting and quoting again to clarify, defend, etc. We're all on the same side - we all seek community, and while there is room for disagreement, it should not be about things insanely personal, like how we choose to define ourselves, feel, or be. We get enough crap from the rest of the world, if anyone should be able to respect the members of this vast planet, we should. Even if we are just understanding that someone is extremely touchy about language. And for those extremely touchy about language - the same - understand that there is NO way, without a paragraph drawn up by an attorney, to write about these topics in a way that doesn't offend someone.

In a way, it's all silly, and prevents real communication.

[BullDog]

I grew up in the 1960's not 1950s but my mother was basically June Cleaver- not pearls and heels, but she was a housewife with 3 kids. She got a scholarship to go to college but got married instead. When my father got abusive she really had no way out- no way to support her children- not to mention all of the Christian and societal upbringing. So the June Cleaver/50's ideal hits me in the gut and not in a good way. I also feel it is uplifting white upper middle class as "the ideal" over everything else.

I feel no one has attacked but big charges have been made and when we ask for clarification we really don't get any and are told we are making people scared to post and to get out.

I think there is a better place to have this discussion and it is happening now in another thread. Sorry if I intruded but it hits me in the gut hard.

[Greyson]

I think there is a misperception, assumption that Transmen, masculine, and/or male identified people are in denial, cut off, ashamed or terribly traumatized from their experience of being born into a female body and socialized in various degrees to align with society's idea of what a female body person "should" think and act.

I have been posting for a few years now about this stuff and if you read carefully what I say, never have I said I was the same as a cisgender man. I know there are others with similar thoughts and I know there are Transmen that do not feel or think the same.

I do think there are times when masculine and male identified butches and Transmen are dealt with in a way that reeks of a double standard. For example, if I were to come in and talk about how I wanted a wife I believe my using the term "wife" would rub many the wrong way. There would be an assumption that my idea of a wife is not equal in the power structure. If a femme expresses a desire for a wife, it is assumed the power dynamic will be equal and misogyny or the patriarchical belief systems are not in play.

This is not to say that misogyny does not exist. It does exist and it is incumbent on all of us to do our work. Much of it is interalized and we may not even be aware of it. It is not excuse to continue living in ignorance. We all have work to do.