June Cleaver : Femme Friend or Femme Foe

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by Julie

And on a personal note to you Princess... You are my Femme Sister and I care deeply for you on a vast spectrum. I will NEVER view a straight woman the same way I view you... She will never be my Femme Sister - She might be might be my sister... But never my Femme Sister. The same goes for a few other beautiful Femmes here who have gotten inside of this hard exterior of mine. They will never share the same place at my table, as my straight female friends. We are Kin.

And I hope you don't feel beaten up (by me) for your views - they are yours and you are entitled to your opinion... I will not think less of you. I think there is a bit of learning for all of us and it is a continuum and I hope I continue to learn.

♥ Julie

<3 you too.

Maybe i'm not explaining it well enough....or maybe i am. LOL. But, here goes again...

The word femme to me is a dynamic that is near and dear to my heart. I found this word when i was new to the gay dynamic. I knew nothing about the gay world and was totally lost. I was more feminine than any of the gay people i knew and thought i was a freak. THEN i found BF. THEN i found the word femme. THEN i fit in. I hold that word as sacred. Still do.

My ONLY point with what i was saying is how can *we* say that in someone's heart they aren't a femme. In other words, when i was married to a bio guy i know NOW i was a femme. I was living a straight life. I was seen as straight, but in my HEART i was a femme, just didn't know it yet. If i had known that word, i would have claimed that identity. No one has the right to take that from me IMO. Therefore, how can i deny any woman that honor and tell them they are not.

But, as far as "us femmes" in the gay community, it is special and beautiful and there is no one in the straight world that could come close to how i feel with my femme sisters. I get that. I get that more than i can tell you. You know i get that. You know me. It is a special word and it is a special identity.

I'll just end my thoughts with this...

I would never view a straight woman with the same level of love i feel for other femmes either. No matter how they ID. Never meant to imply that i felt differently.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

<3 you too.

Maybe i'm not explaining it well enough....or maybe i am. LOL. But, here goes again...

The word femme to me is a dynamic that is near and dear to my heart. I found this word when i was new to the gay dynamic. I knew nothing about the gay world and was totally lost. I was more feminine than any of the gay people i knew and thought i was a freak. THEN i found BF. THEN i found the word femme. THEN i fit in. I hold that word as sacred. Still do.

My ONLY point with what i was saying is how can *we* say that in someone's heart they aren't a femme. In other words, when i was married to a bio guy i know NOW i was a femme. I was living a straight life. I was seen as straight, but in my HEART i was a femme, just didn't know it yet. If i had known that word, i would have claimed that identity. No one has the right to take that from me IMO. Therefore, how can i deny any woman that honor and tell them they are not.

But, as far as "us femmes" in the gay community, it is special and beautiful and there is no one in the straight world that could come close to how i feel with my femme sisters. I get that. I get that more than i can tell you. You know i get that. You know me. It is a special word and it is a special identity.

I'll just end my thoughts with this...

I would never view a straight woman with the same level of love i feel for other femmes either. No matter how they ID. Never meant to imply that i felt differently.

I went through this very same thought when I was married, I was a dyke, married to a bio man. I never thought that when I sat down and picked myself apart that a word could change me so much like Femme did. It made sense to me and I kept it a secret between me and those I was involved with at the time. I often questioned my gender because of the social markers that get imposed on Femme. I wasn't fitting them and I certainly couldn't fully live as Femme while in my marriage. Queer, Dyke, Poly, Gay fit well and I didn't feel I had to not claim them.

It was like my Femme was in the closet and well this closet burst. Then I met more women like me and then more and more. I knew a few Femme's but the online communities I belonged to started too bursting at the seams with Femme. I found myself wading and sorting through all things that people were assigning Femme and slipped comfortably into my Gender.

It's not easy when one as a Femme has to almost plan when it is ok to be you, it's oppressive and us being women it's a rough time self examining one's needs because we are brow beaten into x, y, z. For me if a woman, man, is having and experiencing queer feelings, queer thoughts, queer desires more likely than you will fit one of the many labels that we use.


Straight girls don't struggle with that. I asked and ask my friends and they are like um NO. Their choices in sex, love, politics, critical thinking is over ------------------------------------------------>

while mine is over there
<----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Opposite, maybe some similarities but not to many.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I went through this very same thought when I was married, I was a dyke, married to a bio man. I never thought that when I sat down and picked myself apart that a word could change me so much like Femme did. It made sense to me and I kept it a secret between me and those I was involved with at the time. I often questioned my gender because of the social markers that get imposed on Femme. I wasn't fitting them and I certainly couldn't fully live as Femme while in my marriage. Queer, Dyke, Poly, Gay fit well and I didn't feel I had to not claim them.

It was like my Femme was in the closet and well this closet burst. Then I met more women like me and then more and more. I knew a few Femme's but the online communities I belonged to started too bursting at the seams with Femme. I found myself wading and sorting through all things that people were assigning Femme and slipped comfortably into my Gender.

It's not easy when one as a Femme has to almost plan when it is ok to be you, it's oppressive and us being women it's a rough time self examining one's needs because we are brow beaten into x, y, z. For me if a woman, man, is having and experiencing queer feelings, queer thoughts, queer desires more likely than you will fit one of the many labels that we use.


Straight girls don't struggle with that. I asked and ask my friends and they are like um NO. Their choices in sex, love, politics, critical thinking is over ------------------------------------------------>

while mine is over there
<----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Opposite, maybe some similarities but not to many.

It was hard, wasn't it? I also remember on the dash site when i figured out what femme was and that i was one. But, then i read on some of the threads about femmes had to wear high heals all the time yada yada. I started second guessing the word for a long time and i thought, well heck, maybe i'm not.

But, i held on and found out femme can mean so many things to so many different people.

Well, it's a beautiful word and is shared by a lot beautiful women. And i'm so glad i figured out i don't have to be ____ to claim it.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

It was hard, wasn't it? I also remember on the dash site when i figured out what femme was and that i was one. But, then i read on some of the threads about femmes had to wear high heals all the time yada yada. I started second guessing the word for a long time and i thought, well heck, maybe i'm not.

But, i held on and found out femme can mean so many things to so many different people.

Well, it's a beautiful word and is shared by a lot beautiful women. And i'm so glad i figured out i don't have to be ____ to claim it.

It was only hard when I stepped out of my leather, that's been the only place as a Femme where my gender, my cock, my presentation, my dress has never been questioned.

Yet

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by Martina

I think what is different about the oppression of women in the fifties and now is that it was sold to us as the norm, as the way to be a real woman, and we believed it. When we didn't believe it, there were sanctions to enforce it, including violence. There are many women still who lack power in their relationships and who suffer because of that. When patriarchal ideology is is used to justify these conditions, as it sometimes is among conservative religious folk, it becomes that much harder for women to realize that they are being ill-treated, to find allies, and to get out.

The conservative women who live these lives and love it -- and there are a lot of them -- I say you are lucky. Lucky that it worked out for you. If you had gotten the wrong husband or perhaps had been very poor, what hell might it have been for you? I hope they think about that the next time they teach in Sunday School that women should obey their husbands.

Women really lacking power and being oppressed -- that's nothing I support in any way. Pretending to lack power in that and even more sickening scenarios -- I am up for that. I like much more twisted shit than that. (not sharing).

As for people who live something that LOOKS like a traditional hierarchical arrangement but isn't, good for you. Have at it. I mean, who cares? I don't see any group of lesbians or feminists criticizing women for choosing whatever kind of arrangements. I think for most, the operative word would be "choose." There may be a few, but it's no one's public agenda to tell folks how to relate to their partners. Feminists are too busy trying to make sure unfunded battered women's shelters stay open and busy trying to protect abortion rights.

The Martha Stewart phenomenon is, I think, bad and good. Seventies feminism was about claiming the public sphere for women. The eighties conservative reaction -- Izod and proms and Martha Stewart -- was, in part, a backlash, but in part a reclaiming of the things we liked about the world before feminism, including homemaking. Martha is more popular among working class women who don't have the time or resources to do what she does or live as she does than she ever was with upper middle class women. It's a fantasy. It's not a bad one if you don't take it too seriously. It's not just about being all things to all people, knowing everything, doing everything well. It's about pleasure and self-care. It's also about one's relationship to consumerism. Do you make it yourself or buy it? If you buy it, what are you buying? Where are you getting it from? For some people, it's a political issue, for some it's about the quality of the experience. More and more, it's about both.

The recession has resulted in more focus on the home. It's cheaper to be home than go out. And so many people have lost their homes that I think we appreciate them more. Figuring out one's relationship to the home and homemaking is not easy.

Re June Cleaver, I would do her. I would lift that shirt dress over her head and . . . .

some scattered thoughts about the items highlighted above:


i'm one of the choosers. i choose to live a "lifestyle" (hate that word) that is focused on domesticity and on my own pursuits. i'm single now, and no different than i would be if i were partnered, except that now i trade my skills for room & board. if i lived alone i'd do all of these things for myself. and when partnered, i do them for my One. but i do them as part of a dynamic that suits me. i prefer service oriented submission. it makes me happy. i've partnered with people who understand that and reciprocate and people who said they understood at the beginning and discovered later that perhaps they didnt understand at all. one thing i can always tell, the relationship is over when i go from service oriented submissive to "mule". (my term for work w/no reciprocity).

when i'm doing the domestic part of my thing in a loving, reciprocity based relationship i find that i am very happy, very sexually engaged, very devoted to working on my relationship AND very respected for what i offer. i've wanted that particular "lifestyle" since i was a kid, despite my very feminist mother's incessant objection and abhorrence of the idea. and if i have unconsciously or inadvertently called it a 50s thing, it's not with oppressive nature of those times in mind. it was with no particular thought in mind at all, frankly. not because i'm incapable but because i never thought i'd be called upon to defend it. (i am NOT saying that i'm being called upon to do that now. i do not feel anyone is attacking anyone else or being unfair. i am enjoying reading the discussion.) i never honestly thought past my own understanding of what was going on in my life, between me and a partner. if someone else sees the dynamic i have with a partner it's rare.

there definitely ARE feminists (of every variety) who are vocally and vehemently critical of my choice to be faithful to my feelings about myself and the way i interact within the self-chosen parameters of my relationships. i live with one of them now. i've encountered at least 3 or 4 dozen of like-minded people since arriving on the east coast a few months ago and i am routinely criticized on a weekly (at least) basis by a friend of my landlord for being "too fucking muck like June Cleaver". i've been told that my "lifestyle is a betrayal of feminism" or of "queer progress", i've been told i'm an "insult" to feminism, a "slap in the face to women's rights", a "traitor to women", a "lesbian poser" and a couple of worse things, including that i'm "sick". painful stuff. i usually just walk away but the few times i've engaged in conversation i've met brick wall resistance. oddly, i spend more time actively fighting for abortion rights, birth control access, homeless services and so on. most of the feminists i've met and known are content to rest on that label of honor.

as for Martha, she's impossible to achieve and i dont want to. but i'm a redesign mavin who never buys new, always makes something out of nothing, and refuses to contribute to hyper-consumerism or send more to the landfill than is necessary. i like some of her ideas but i'm more of a Maria Brito fan, but then again Brito isnt being force fed to me at every grocery check out line either. do i dig some of Martha's stuff? you bet. am i lining up for her autograph? no. MS is a brand, not a person. i like her as an idea producer. i also think she's ridiculous. she has a schedule for oiling her saddles. who the f*ck has a saddle schedule? i dont even know the bus schedule! my Stewart/Brito tendencies come from having wanted to be a designer at a very young age. i have a Masters Degree now, in something much less marketable than Interior Design and i have always regretted it. to me such things arent the consumerist facade they've become. they're about making beauty or fun or tranquility as you define it; about creating a haven away from the busy-ness of the world where you can recuperate and laugh and cry and f*ck and eat and drink and play and fight and love and relax and discover community and family and long term connection.

as for you and June, i think you should invite Martha too. she always strikes me as easily underestimated.

[Martina]

As a friend, I can be as close to a straight woman, andro dyke, butch, trans person, or cis-man as I can be to a femme. Gender makes no difference to me where friendship is concerned.

And one of my very closest friends is femme, so I do know what it's like to have a femme friend.

Thinking . . . I don't know that our both being femme is even a major part of our bond. I am sorta geeky, and she is very geeky. That's a lot of it. We're both kinky. We both teach. That's huge. We both came from the midwest though from very different backgrounds -- especially in terms of religion. We can talk about anything. We are comfortable around each other. We don't get bored with one another. We got each other's backs.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I too have close friends in the gender spectrum besides Femme. I'm not mentioning them here because they do differ than some of my Femme relationships.

I, Snow didn't choose to talk about other genders because I've so many compartments it would be confusing and not important to the conversation

[girl_dee]

yup it was a hard Femme journey for myself as well. i told my (ex) husband that i was gay after one year of marriage, we stayed in it for 10 because there were commitments and kids involved, and i felt it was my job, besides i was trying to *fix* my gay. We were never like a married couple, more like a team who had a mission. We had a great run, but i knew my time would come. i tried to be Carol Brady/June Cleaver/Mary Tyler Moore and i dream of Jeannie all at once.

add in there a strong desire for kink and you got a real confused woman.


So divorce came then i came out of the closet .. the splinters were flying.

i was GAY!!!!!!!

So then i was free to be *gay*. i went out and got a girlfriend. She was a femme i suppose, heck i don't know what she was, but she was not butch. First day she wanted me to pick up her dry cleaning. Then she borrowed my shoes, my dresses... then she asked me to stop at her house and take out her trash, if i didn't mind. i stopped by and broke up with her! i realized i don't like women all THAT much after all. We fought for bottom you might say. it was so awkward and i was so disappointed that i was not *gay* after all. i felt like a freak. i didn't like men, and i didn't like women and i wanted someone to take control of me.

THEN a gay co-worker took me to a gay bar. i walked in scared to death. i looked around ....

i said *let's go.... there's nothing but men in here*

She said *dee? them ain't men*



i swooned at all the butches lined up at the bar, their energy. i felt like that was my defining femme moment. i finally figured out what i was, mostly.

A short time later i went into service for a Butch Master. She had a femme partner and we bonded, and that was a special time for me. i knew i had a wonderful, awesome life ahead because i knew who i was for once.

i remember when my husband found out i had a girlfriend, he was happy for me. He wanted to meet my girlfriend, i said sure.. so he drove by (we lived near each other) and he stopped over.. introduced him to my very butch girlfriend, he looked at her and said *omg this is disgusting*

Ruined his fantasy much?