What attracts you to Ftms ......

[The_Lady_Snow]

Actually Gemme, my point to my posts is/was that you can state your desires/wants/kinks/role playing/ dynamics without having to judge what others have done..

It seems to be a continuous tiring conversation in the forums that what you like may not be what I like and that there is no need to critique what others do.

[BullDog]

Gemme, it does not feel like people are talking about kink to me. I was quite surprised when that was brought up. I don't feel anyone is speaking out against anyone's kink.

The 1950s, June Cleaver, "OFOS" all the these things get brought up constantly- it does seem to be about social commentary and values and times that were "better" when women were ladies and men were gentleman. It hits quite a sore spot. I suppose we are supposed to stay in our own little camps and say nothing.

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Gemme, it does not feel like people are talking about kink to me. I was quite surprised when that was brought up. I don't feel anyone is speaking out against anyone's kink.

This actually threw me too. I don't consider the lifestyle being discussed as a "kink". The "you do the car repairs, take the trash out, open my door, and in return I'll cook and clean and pamper you when you get home at the end of the day" is not kink. It's a relationship or lifestyle dynamic. I don't even think it's role playing or mimicking "50's traditional values", and I can say that because I've lived that life, and it wasn't because I found it kinky, or glamorous - it was what fit me and my partner at the time. He took on all the "traditional" binary "male" roles in the relationship, and I took on the "female" ones, except that he cooked sometimes. And before anyone thinks about taking a torch to me, please reread where I referenced this as "TRADITIONAL binary gender roles". I'm not implying butches can't do X and femmes can't do X. I can do whatever the fuck I want to, and usually do, including riding motorcycles, getting tattoos, and playing poker. But I'm not going to pretend that in some relationships I've been in, those "traditional binary gender roles" didn't set in on their own, organically. That doesn't mean I was kept from doing anything - I am and was still my own person. I don't like taking out the trash, or fixing things around the house. I felt blessed that my partner liked doing all those things. But I never once saw any of this as "kink."

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Actually Gemme, my point to my posts is/was that you can state your desires/wants/kinks/role playing/ dynamics without having to judge what others have done..

It seems to be a continuous tiring conversation in the forums that what you like may not be what I like and that there is no need to critique what others do.

Okay. I see that and do hear that from you. And you are right. Everyone should be able to do their own thing without judgement as long as it's consensual.

What you are saying here is what I was saying earlier. To me, it felt like the dynamic...the exchange between folks using some of the standards of that time....were was was being challenged. I see that it's more than that now.

Basically, as I understand it, this stemmed from a set of comments made about how this era was the best and that some folks wished the world was like this now, etc. Somehow that opinion morphed into a judgement call on others who do not participate in that dynamic.

I have to withdraw from the conversation, as it's time for work, but I think we're saying a lot of the same thing. There's just that one part that seems to be tripping folks up.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Actually Gemme, my point to my posts is/was that you can state your desires/wants/kinks/role playing/ dynamics without having to judge what others have done..

It seems to be a continuous tiring conversation in the forums that what you like may not be what I like and that there is no need to critique what others do.

Originally Posted by BullDog

Gemme, it does not feel like people are talking about kink to me. I was quite surprised when that was brought up. I don't feel anyone is speaking out against anyone's kink.

The 1950s, June Cleaver, "OFOS" all the these things get brought up constantly- it does seem to be about social commentary and values and times that were "better" when women were ladies and men were gentleman. It hits quite a sore spot. I suppose we are supposed to stay in our own little camps and say nothing.

One last thing....see how it can be confusing? We have two different themes running through the same conversation.

So, part of it is based on preferences and part of it is based on historical ramifications.

Really have to go now, but I promise I'll be back later tonight! Thanks for the discussion!

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by Gemme

One last thing....see how it can be confusing? We have two different themes running through the same conversation.

So, part of it is based on preferences and part of it is based on historical ramifications.

Really have to go now, but I promise I'll be back later tonight! Thanks for the discussion!

It isn't just that we have different themes running through this conversation, but I think the latest conversation is that some people want to have a safe place to post without being challenged. I get it, but that's not what public forums are about. I think there are two solutions: discuss in person, in private, or in a private online chat room made up of people that are like minded or who won't challenge you; or post in the Listening thread, where nobody is allowed to respond. It's not perfect, but nothing can be all things to everyone, and since this is mostly a public site, this obviously is not a place where people can post their opinions and thoughts without responses.

[GraffitiBoi]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Basically, as I understand it, this stemmed from a set of comments made about how this era was the best and that some folks wished the world was like this now, etc. Somehow that opinion morphed into a judgement call on others who do not participate in that dynamic.

I'm only using Gemme's post as a starting point to clarify what happened and try to maybe get people to understand where all this came from.

I was here when the comment was made that actually caused this whole derailling thread. The comment was relating to how the person likes to treat her 'man'/boi/butch/partner/etc. She was referring to how she likes to cook, clean, etc. It was not about the era itself at all or claiming that the 50s was the ideal time. It was just simply about how she likes to treat the person she loves. Other people assumed that by her using June Cleaver as how she defines herself to mean that she meant the 50s were the best times and that somehow she was in favor of suppressing women's rights, the rights of other minorities, giving men all the power and control... blah blah blah. This was not the intent or meaning and it all got blown out of proportion because some people jumped to conclusions and made some very big assumptions. It had nothing to do with kink or revoking equality or rights.

I don't think any single person here was in the wrong for anything they said. I do think it was wrong for people to jump to conclusions and make assumptions first. But it happens and forums are where we can talk it out and understand each other. Everyone has different ways they live their lives. No one is denying that right. Some women like to take care of their partner, some want to be taken care of, and others want an equal 50/50 split. No one is wrong. Assuming a 'June Cleaver' Femme wants to give up her rights and live like it's the 1950s based on one small comment is not much different than how some straight people assume that being gay means you like to sleep around with everyone and have no morals based solely on the small fact that you are attracted to someone who is the same gender as you are.

Thank you for listening and I hope this may have helped sort this all out, at least a little bit.

[BullDog]

I think I do partially get it. Like if I said, wow I love the 1920's they had such great music and clothes. Then people come back and say OMG BullDog how could you say that? What about WWI, The Great Depression was about to hit, all the oppression- racism, sexism, etc. Then I'm like- geeze I like the music and clothes I didn't say I love everything about it or want to live exactly that way.

With the whole 1950's thing, June Cleaver, OFOS- it feels like we are hit with it time and time again and it feels stifling and oppressive to me. Maybe because I lived a quasi-version of it. I think the June Cleaver thread is quite enlightening and expresses many of the thoughts I feel. I get that we can all have our own favorite eras and role models, but these just seem to be predominant ones that get held out as the standard over and over again. It feels like a very white upper middle class heterosexual model that gets held up as the standard that most of us could never live up to or want to live up to. Perhaps the answer is to just go to our separate corners. I really don't know.

[Chancie]

Originally Posted by GraffitiBoi

<snip>

I was here when the comment was made that actually caused this whole derailling thread. The comment was relating to how the person likes to treat her 'man'/boi/butch/partner/etc. She was referring to how she likes to cook, clean, etc. It was not about the era itself at all or claiming that the 50s was the ideal time. It was just simply about how she likes to treat the person she loves. Other people assumed that by her using June Cleaver as how she defines herself to mean that she meant the 50s were the best times and that somehow she was in favor of suppressing women's rights, the rights of other minorities, giving men all the power and control... blah blah blah. This was not the intent or meaning and it all got blown out of proportion because some people jumped to conclusions and made some very big assumptions. It had nothing to do with kink or revoking equality or rights.

<snip>

The thing is, and it is not my intention to rank on that member, so do I. I love taking care of Pete. I understand the desire for a shorthand to describe that, I do. But the references to periods of time that were especially bad for women, or Blacks, or any other group that has been systematically discriminated against? It's shit stirring, whether intentional or not.

[GraffitiBoi]

Originally Posted by Chancie

But the references to periods of time that were especially bad for women, or Blacks, or any other group that has been systematically discriminated against? It's shit stirring, whether intentional or not.

And yet people love the renaissance fair and flock to it and dress up in period costume, but it doesn't stir up as much... stuff... as this person's post did. Talk about an oppressive time period!

That being said I think I need to remove myself from this whole thread until (if) it un-derails itself! LOL

[Hominid]

I think I brought "kink" into the conversation - I think I also qualified it as "some level of kink" - I apologize for any offense. There is a whole community of people who come at this from a 50's household kinky point of view, I must have had that on my brain. Medieval Fairs aren't kink either. I'm not sure bringing kink into the discussion invalidates what I was saying. Actually whether it's kink or not, although times have changed - there were women who felt empowered even back then, and weren't happy about the changes.

As far as being an asshole - yes, born-men have the whole world in which to be an asshole. This may be less so for trans-men to different degrees depending on their circumstances. I believe we are ALL assholes. I *think* I understand what DMW was trying to say - I wasn't thrilled with the "especially submissive femme" reference. Really, he has a right to want to vent, to be his "asshole" self. But in a thread such as this with a large number of femmes - not wise. DMW would be better off choosing another thread, or maybe creating his own, where other guys in similar shoes who have gone through or are going through the process can call him out or support him from our perspective. I can say it is very hard at times to be surrounded by male privilege, not be perceived as male, and confuse the lack of receipt of male privilege with lack of recognition as male. VERY hard, and often not resolvable until one is perceived as male socially.

For me, I became an even bigger feminist the more I was perceived as male. Males sometimes see me as betraying them, women are generally confused when I advocate - and sadly, if they knew I was trans I would not be taken as seriously.