June Cleaver : Femme Friend or Femme Foe

[aishah]

from my previous interactions with nomad, i have the basic assumption that she explores this stuff on her own as well as through here. i could be wrong. i don't mind being asked to elaborate (especially with the caveat that she doesn't expect me to - i didn't feel pressured by her post as i have in other conversations here about education).

the only thing i found difficult was the phrasing of "tell me what to do" - i think, especially when oppression issues come up, people want to be told what to do. i know i definitely experience that sometimes. the idea that there's an easy answer and or a rulebook or something. unfortunately, usually, there isn't, and i don't think anyone wants to (or should) be in the position of telling others what to do. life just doesn't work that way - you have to fuck up and learn on your own. but i can share what's worked for me in my own experience. that doesn't mean it'll work for everyone.

[Julie]

I agree aishah... It was a trigger for me as well (Tell me what to do) and I stopped myself from reacting. Oftentimes we pick phrases/words from a post (especially a long post) and skim the rest.

You obviously in your life have mentored.

Julie

[The_Lady_Snow]

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison? How do we stop it from happening within our own community?

(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)


How does that affect you internally as a Femme?


Does it hurt your feelings? Do you get defensive?


Curious.


(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)

[Chancie]

Nomad, I don't have the extra long post gene, so my responses can seem terse, but I def don't mean to be curt.

For me, using 'June Cleaver' as a gender marker is the whole problem, not the desire to cook, or iron, or be an excellent homemaker. She represents a female persona and an era that was terrible for a lot of people, whether or not we choose to ignore history and context.

[Chancie]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison? How do we stop it from happening within our own community?

(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)

How does that affect you internally as a Femme?

Does it hurt your feelings? Do you get defensive?

Curious.

(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)

Because I do like to take care of and fuss over Pete, and because I like to be the girl who bought the best present for a little girl, and because I like to bring the best treats to pot lucks, not because I am a femme, but because I am ChanciePants, I feel silenced and alienated when other femmes say they aspire to being, not modern but old fashioned June Cleavers. I think, Oh, very nice if you're pretty, thin, middle class and white, and not a feminist. I feel like they aggressively choose to dismiss feminism and women's rights.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison? How do we stop it from happening within our own community?
(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)

I suppose just keep fighting it. Call it out when we see it over and over and over.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

How does that affect you internally as a Femme?


Does it hurt your feelings? Do you get defensive?


Curious.


(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)

That's interesting because after thinking about it, i do both...

When i hear it from the femme folks, it makes me feel sad and sorta hurts my feelers i guess. I want to reach out and find out how anyone could think this era of time could be a good thing. It boggles my mind.

But, i'll be completely honest here, when i hear it from masculine folk? I get VERY defensive....and i don't really know why i feel this way...I want to scream, levitate, spew green fluid from my nostrils and bite the head off of a bat.

Not sure why it spurs different feelings depending on who i hear it from. I'll have to think on that.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison? How do we stop it from happening within our own community?

I do not believe it is our right to STOP anyone from professing their desires (June or Not) or living their lives. I think it is important that we as Femme's talk about this. I remember when my kids were little. I was open with them and I asked Peter (pediatrician) how much information can I give them. And he said... Give them everything, they will absorb what they can handle and in the hand, be healthier adults. I think the same is true for us as adults. If we keep on talking about it - Then we will open the eyes of some and they will in turn do the same. It only can have a positive effect.

(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)

My initial reaction is to get defensive and chew them up. That is how I react to most things. I am trying to find a different way (this time around on the planet).

How does that affect you internally as a Femme?

It doesn't affect me as a Femme. I worry that it will affect younger Femme's and perhaps fill them with shame on how they live their lives. So, I as a Femme choose to educate.

Does it hurt your feelings? Do you get defensive?

No, it just makes me sad for those who believe their self worth is to serve (not kink) and encourage and empower the thought of a patriarchy.


Curious.

(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)

I just wish we could be kinder and not so condescending to those around us and receive the same. All this creates is shame.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison?

I think correction and insisting that comparing a group of people to one person, a character will work, it may be hard work but it will work. I also believe we can be more understanding and supportiveto desires/kinks/dynamics/choices.


How do we stop it from happening within our own community?


Speaking up, asking for clarification, making sure it's not coming from making it personal space.

(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)


How does that affect you internally as a Femme?


Sometimes I am like WTF, other times I am like whatever! Depends on the context.


Does it hurt your feelings? Sometimes

Do you get defensive?

I only feel defensive when people are coming from a place of being critical towards others choices, or when people try to hold *ALL* Femmes to a ridiculous standard


Curious.


(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)

I also thought about this last night before falling asleep. Service oriented submission isn't a 50's lifestyle it's service. I am coming from my Leather oriented space so when speaking of service nothing binary comes to mind in my thinking. Chores, tasks, markers aren't gender specific. My boys are going to do dishes as are my girls. I'm more like WTF when someone refers to service oriented BDSM/Kink/Leather as something from the 50's.

I hope that makes sense

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I also thought about this last night before falling asleep. Service oriented submission isn't a 50's lifestyle it's service. I am coming from my Leather oriented space so when speaking of service nothing binary comes to mind in my thinking. Chores, tasks, markers aren't gender specific. My boys are going to do dishes as are my girls. I'm more like WTF when someone refers to service oriented BDSM/Kink/Leather as something from the 50's.

I hope that makes sense

i makes perfect sense to me. When i realized service oriented service was my "thing" not once did i ponder June Cleaver/ the struggles of women in the 50's. my thoughts were that after all these years i can finally have my passion, domestic service to a Master who appreciated me. i was not trying to relive the 50's, it just so happens that some things that i love doing is what women did in the 50's. i also love working at the clinic helping others, and it pays really well, that is equally as satisfying.

it does not feel like kink to me. It feels very natural and fluid. It's just how we live in this household. When i decided to stay on here at the farm, Syr said *the kitchen is yours, do what you want with it*.. it was AWESOME!

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison? How do we stop it from happening within our own community?

(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)

I think it has to be called out....but I don't mean by attacking that person's point of view either. I think an awful lot of this is deeply ingrained stuff that people aren't thinking about....just reacting. It's almost like that unconscious knee-jerk reaction.

Someone, and apologies that I can't find who, talked about the thread where butches (and others) post pics of women that they think are hot....and frequently call them "femme" even if they are straight women. They used the comparison of what would happen if femmes went into the thread of hot butches and posted pics of bio-men.

I imagine all hell would break loose.

For me, that's a clear-as-a-bell sign of an internalized double standard....and we need to be pointing that out to people, perhaps by giving them that very example as an illustration.

How does that affect you internally as a Femme?

It really doesn't for me....which sounds weird....but I have a high tolerance for shrugging off bullshit.

Does it hurt your feelings? Do you get defensive?


Mostly, it makes me sad that we haven't made more progress. I remember protesting for passage of the ERA....and I was YOUNG. Now I'm 50....and we're really not that far ahead of where we were then....and have a Republican presidential candidate in a frighteningly close race that would like to push us even farther backwards than I can even imagine.

I know this isn't a political thread....well kinda'.....but I wonder how much internalized hatred must a woman have to vote for Romney/Ryan. And, apologies if anyone on this site is planning to vote that way, but I seriously do wonder how someone can endorse someone that wants to make them a second-class citizen, or worse.Curious.


(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)

I found it interesting what you said about the Leather community Snow. I have no experience there, but it resonates with me that service is a very different thing, and not tied to gender.

In my perfect vision of the world, people get to do what they like and what they're good at, regardless of what's between their legs....and there isn't any judgement attached to it.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I found it interesting what you said about the Leather community Snow. I have no experience there, but it resonates with me that service is a very different thing, and not tied to gender.

In my perfect vision of the world, people get to do what they like and what they're good at, regardless of what's between their legs....and there isn't any judgement attached to it.

BAM!!!!


I love that Jo!

[Martina]

Is any of that real content about gender?

• wanting to devote your time and energy to pleasing another
• enjoying domestic chores (if only for the beloved other)
• being available to nurture, support, or instruct

The part that is gender specific other than the clothes is grooving upon the power dynamics embedded in gender. That is kink. Fetish. Whatever you want to call it.

I can get hot because the person I am with is butch. I can get hot because the person I am with has power. I do not conflate the two. It does not get me extra wet BECAUSE a masculine person has power over my more feminine self. Or it has like twice. It's not my kink. But it's a kink. And as such I respect it.

But bringing the conflation of power inequity with gender roles into the world as a "natural" way of relating -- that is sexism. Talking about women's roles and butches or masculine ID'd people's roles as if they are real things. Um no.

I was briefly with someone who had those ideas. We had been friends first and equals. I was shocked when it all came up in D/s. Stupid me. The fact is he no longer respected me as much the minute I went down for him. In his mind, bringing together power exchange with traditional gender roles MEANT disrespecting women. And that is what it has traditionally meant. I have an Egyptian friend who swears no, no, it's separate spheres, and both are respected. To which I say bullshit.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Martina

Is any of that real content about gender?

• wanting to devote your time and energy to pleasing another
• enjoying domestic chores (if only for the beloved other)
• being available to nurture, support, or instruct

The part that is gender specific other than the clothes is grooving upon the power dynamics embedded in gender. That is kink. Fetish. Whatever you want to call it.

I can get hot because the person I am with is butch. I can get hot because the person I am with has power. I do not conflate the two. It does not get me extra wet BECAUSE a masculine person has power over my more feminine self. Or it has like twice. It's not my kink. But it's a kink. And as such I respect it.

But bringing the conflation of power inequity with gender roles into the world as a "natural" way of relating -- that is sexism. Talking about women's roles and butches or masculine ID'd people's roles as if they are real things. Um no.

I was briefly with someone who had those ideas. We had been friends first and equals. I was shocked when it all came up in D/s. Stupid me. The fact is he no longer respected me as much the minute I went down for him. In his mind, bringing together power exchange with traditional gender roles MEANT disrespecting women. And that is what it has traditionally meant. I have an Egyptian friend who swears no, no, it's separate spheres, and both are respected. To which I say bullshit.

Who all here identifies with Femme as their gender?

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by Martina

Is any of that real content about gender?

• wanting to devote your time and energy to pleasing another
• enjoying domestic chores (if only for the beloved other)
• being available to nurture, support, or instruct

The part that is gender specific other than the clothes is grooving upon the power dynamics embedded in gender. That is kink. Fetish. Whatever you want to call it.

I can get hot because the person I am with is butch. I can get hot because the person I am with has power. I do not conflate the two. It does not get me extra wet BECAUSE a masculine person has power over my more feminine self. Or it has like twice. It's not my kink. But it's a kink. And as such I respect it.

But bringing the conflation of power inequity with gender roles into the world as a "natural" way of relating -- that is sexism. Talking about women's roles and butches or masculine ID'd people's roles as if they are real things. Um no.

I was briefly with someone who had those ideas. We had been friends first and equals. I was shocked when it all came up in D/s. Stupid me. The fact is he no longer respected me as much the minute I went down for him. In his mind, bringing together power exchange with traditional gender roles MEANT disrespecting women. And that is what it has traditionally meant. I have an Egyptian friend who swears no, no, it's separate spheres, and both are respected. To which I say bullshit.

great post Martina.

You know I felt conflicted most of my life because I didn't fall into any traditional roles- not ever. I had one aunt that was typical June Cleaver type and waited on her family hand and foot. She took great pride in this. Another aunt was a go-go dancer that wore sequined bikini's and fishnet stockings and danced in a hanging cage. She had lots of boyfriends who bought her gifts, cleaned her house and treated her like a Queen. I wanted to be her but when I heard my mom and other family members gossip about her it made me feel stupid. I wanted to be a go-go queen. I didn;t want to cook and clean for a bunch of people who never reciprocated.

In school there were too many times when I heard, "You'll marry a nice man and he'll take care of you." or "Its just as easy to fall in love with a rich man then a poor man." such stupid bullshit. I didn't want anything to do with any of it.

So at a very young age I made my own money and people did things for me. If you wanted to date me you knew this about me and if you didn't like it I showed you the road. Later I tapped into femdom and things became more serious. I was much happier but I still had to deal with too much judgement about how my way of living wasn't normal. That I couldn't treat people like that and that women didn't act like I was. Meanwhile they lined up to serve me.

I spent way too many years with people trying to shove that great white lie down my throat. I admit that when I see a woman so dialed into that I question if she's really happy or trapped. I know its stupid and one sided because I expect that from someone else. I personally would love a butch wearing an apron and baking me cookies. Life would be perfect.

oh wait if I think about it I'd really like a June Cleaver sub femme wearing a cute little dress, cooking, cleaning and waiting on my hand and foot. It would bring out my masculine energy and I'd have to throw her down and fuck her. Damn I'm so sexist! lol

[spritzerJ]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison? How do we stop it from happening within our own community?

The June Cleaver comparison is just floats by me. I don't know why I just don't expect that folks would compare me to June. So I am not looking for it. Seriously I could miss a giant elephant in a room if I was focused on something else. And most days I focus on just being me, taking care of those I love, doing a good job and continuing to think for myself.

In our own community I think we start by examining ourselves, and when it comes up we question the person making a comparison. We listen to people define for themselves and emphasize that folks tell their own story. Create their own narratives and delineate between group, family and individual thinking and identity.

If it happened in my community, I'd emphasize individual choice. People need to be able to make their own choices. And I expect to be given that latitude. If it isn't given I assume it is and act that way. Maybe that is blind faith or ignorance. I am not a huge fighter and I don't give up.

(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)
I snort. Honestly I can not be expected to behave like a fictional TV character. I say that. The closest example I can come up with of this type of reference being stated as the right/superior way is my sister thinking I should stay home with The General, not date cause I've messed up relationships in the past. To this I say you do what is right for your family and I will do what is right for mine. I explain it as individual choice and how I won't be beholden to group think about my life.

How does that affect you internally as a Femme?
Honestly I question my self. Am I making the right choices for myself and my daughter. And if IF if I think that the effects are hard on my daughter (or my relationship) I do what I do... gather resources, research and get assistance. I accept my limits and don't let them turn me from my path.

Does it hurt your feelings? Do you get defensive?
Sure at times it does. Especially if people persist. Honestly people are usually surprised by my reaction of you go your way I'll go mine. and why would you box me in question? Folks honestly don't think their statements through.
I get defensive when the assumptions come from inside my community. Yet I am learning, like any community, I speak up for myself.

Curious.


(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)

In my life I choose to be a working woman. I am a mom who balances leading, coaching and letting my daughter lead. I am submissive in the bedroom (90% of the time) and allow my natural mushy lovey girl side show for my sweetie. At work I am big on making peace, finding a shared focus but not just rolling over to the dominate way of being. I accept my dichotomies.

I enjoy entertaining, throwing a great birthday party and being a gracious host. Those are ways I show I care about people. That is as close to June Cleaver as I may get.

All and all I am just me. June Cleaver is just a TV show. The way culture, people, communities make her out to be some figure of femme perfection is a sad commentary on how easily some folks let their view of women and our world be distorted. And I won't be lazy about confronting that limited way of thinking.

At one time in my life, college, I swore off capri pants as I was certain I would not wear clothing that harkened the 50's view of women. I own many capri pants now. I like how I look in them.

As for do identify as Femme? I am still exploring. I think femme is the best expression of myself in dress, mannerisms and many parts of myself. I am still wrapping my mind around the whole "gender" thing.

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by blush

Do you have the time, interest, and desire to explore this topic and do your own thinking/research? Or do you expect others to do it for you?

It sounds like you come from an honest place and other viewpoints are always helpful, but really, the hard work has to come from you. It can be an exhausting expectation for others to educate you.

i am going to reply to this privately. i see no reason to derail this thread with my response.

Originally Posted by aishah

from my previous interactions with nomad, i have the basic assumption that she explores this stuff on her own as well as through here. i could be wrong. i don't mind being asked to elaborate (especially with the caveat that she doesn't expect me to - i didn't feel pressured by her post as i have in other conversations here about education).

the only thing i found difficult was the phrasing of "tell me what to do" - i think, especially when oppression issues come up, people want to be told what to do. i know i definitely experience that sometimes. the idea that there's an easy answer and or a rulebook or something. unfortunately, usually, there isn't, and i don't think anyone wants to (or should) be in the position of telling others what to do. life just doesn't work that way - you have to fuck up and learn on your own. but i can share what's worked for me in my own experience. that doesn't mean it'll work for everyone.

Originally Posted by Julie

I agree aishah... It was a trigger for me as well (Tell me what to do) and I stopped myself from reacting. Oftentimes we pick phrases/words from a post (especially a long post) and skim the rest.

You obviously in your life have mentored.

Julie

forgive me if i'm seriously blind but i cant find any such phrase in my post. at no time do i say "tell me what to do" that i can see. i said "what then do i do about...." which is, perhaps, an old-fashioned way of speaking but in no way is meant to suggest that i'd like to be told what to do so that i dont have to think of one myself. i was asking what ideas other people might have for participating in the discussion without coming from an othering or offensive place.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Nomad

i am going to reply to this privately. i see no reason to derail this thread with my response.


forgive me if i'm seriously blind but i cant find any such phrase in my post. at no time do i say "tell me what to do" that i can see. i said "what then do i do about...." which is, perhaps, an old-fashioned way of speaking but in no way is meant to suggest that i'd like to be told what to do so that i dont have to think of one myself. i was asking what ideas other people might have for participating in the discussion without coming from an othering or offensive place.

My apologies for paraphrasing -- what then do i do about my "lifestyle preference?"

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Julie

My apologies for paraphrasing -- what then do i do about my "lifestyle preference?"

i interpreted that in the same way - nomad, i apologize if i misinterpreted what you meant.