June Cleaver : Femme Friend or Femme Foe

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison? How do we stop it from happening within our own community?

(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)

I think it has to be called out....but I don't mean by attacking that person's point of view either. I think an awful lot of this is deeply ingrained stuff that people aren't thinking about....just reacting. It's almost like that unconscious knee-jerk reaction.

Someone, and apologies that I can't find who, talked about the thread where butches (and others) post pics of women that they think are hot....and frequently call them "femme" even if they are straight women. They used the comparison of what would happen if femmes went into the thread of hot butches and posted pics of bio-men.

I imagine all hell would break loose.

For me, that's a clear-as-a-bell sign of an internalized double standard....and we need to be pointing that out to people, perhaps by giving them that very example as an illustration.

How does that affect you internally as a Femme?

It really doesn't for me....which sounds weird....but I have a high tolerance for shrugging off bullshit.

Does it hurt your feelings? Do you get defensive?


Mostly, it makes me sad that we haven't made more progress. I remember protesting for passage of the ERA....and I was YOUNG. Now I'm 50....and we're really not that far ahead of where we were then....and have a Republican presidential candidate in a frighteningly close race that would like to push us even farther backwards than I can even imagine.

I know this isn't a political thread....well kinda'.....but I wonder how much internalized hatred must a woman have to vote for Romney/Ryan. And, apologies if anyone on this site is planning to vote that way, but I seriously do wonder how someone can endorse someone that wants to make them a second-class citizen, or worse.Curious.


(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)

I found it interesting what you said about the Leather community Snow. I have no experience there, but it resonates with me that service is a very different thing, and not tied to gender.

In my perfect vision of the world, people get to do what they like and what they're good at, regardless of what's between their legs....and there isn't any judgement attached to it.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I found it interesting what you said about the Leather community Snow. I have no experience there, but it resonates with me that service is a very different thing, and not tied to gender.

In my perfect vision of the world, people get to do what they like and what they're good at, regardless of what's between their legs....and there isn't any judgement attached to it.

BAM!!!!


I love that Jo!

[Martina]

Is any of that real content about gender?

• wanting to devote your time and energy to pleasing another
• enjoying domestic chores (if only for the beloved other)
• being available to nurture, support, or instruct

The part that is gender specific other than the clothes is grooving upon the power dynamics embedded in gender. That is kink. Fetish. Whatever you want to call it.

I can get hot because the person I am with is butch. I can get hot because the person I am with has power. I do not conflate the two. It does not get me extra wet BECAUSE a masculine person has power over my more feminine self. Or it has like twice. It's not my kink. But it's a kink. And as such I respect it.

But bringing the conflation of power inequity with gender roles into the world as a "natural" way of relating -- that is sexism. Talking about women's roles and butches or masculine ID'd people's roles as if they are real things. Um no.

I was briefly with someone who had those ideas. We had been friends first and equals. I was shocked when it all came up in D/s. Stupid me. The fact is he no longer respected me as much the minute I went down for him. In his mind, bringing together power exchange with traditional gender roles MEANT disrespecting women. And that is what it has traditionally meant. I have an Egyptian friend who swears no, no, it's separate spheres, and both are respected. To which I say bullshit.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Martina

Is any of that real content about gender?

• wanting to devote your time and energy to pleasing another
• enjoying domestic chores (if only for the beloved other)
• being available to nurture, support, or instruct

The part that is gender specific other than the clothes is grooving upon the power dynamics embedded in gender. That is kink. Fetish. Whatever you want to call it.

I can get hot because the person I am with is butch. I can get hot because the person I am with has power. I do not conflate the two. It does not get me extra wet BECAUSE a masculine person has power over my more feminine self. Or it has like twice. It's not my kink. But it's a kink. And as such I respect it.

But bringing the conflation of power inequity with gender roles into the world as a "natural" way of relating -- that is sexism. Talking about women's roles and butches or masculine ID'd people's roles as if they are real things. Um no.

I was briefly with someone who had those ideas. We had been friends first and equals. I was shocked when it all came up in D/s. Stupid me. The fact is he no longer respected me as much the minute I went down for him. In his mind, bringing together power exchange with traditional gender roles MEANT disrespecting women. And that is what it has traditionally meant. I have an Egyptian friend who swears no, no, it's separate spheres, and both are respected. To which I say bullshit.

Who all here identifies with Femme as their gender?

[girl_dee]

Gender = femme

[aishah]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Who all here identifies with Femme as their gender?

me.

i agree with martina (i think) - the problem isn't the power dynamics. the problem is when gender becomes conflated with the power dynamics. especially when the genders and dynamics reflect wider systems of privilege/oppression.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Femme, though I did not come to adopt this until I was say like 29, I had a real hard time with it at first because deep down I knew I was. I still love my marker *Dyke* I am very proud of that identifier.


Femme felt very comfortable and it has a wondeful skin to grow into in my later age. If I could change my marker on my license it would be Womyn.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by aishah

me.

i agree with martina (i think) - the problem isn't the power dynamics. the problem is when gender becomes conflated with the power dynamics. especially when the genders and dynamics reflect wider systems of privilege/oppression.

I often forget about how others define gender and gender roles once I step out of my hoola hoop (ArweNism).

So the dynamics for me still stay the same.


I'm the boss.

I do love to do laundry, I have only one man cub left and it's nicer to only have him. I don't miss the older cubs because well they are grown. So when tantalizing spoke of Ms Cleaver in the mother hood role I was like, HEY I GET THAT!

It was interesting cause I got a lil giddy, connecting with her in that way. I loved loved loved being a Momma. Though in my house it was a Latino run house so the dynamics between the kids and I though very maternal and detail oriented (like Ms Cleaver) it was like I knew or had an example of when it came to Momma's.

So that got me to thinking how now as I am older, house stuff I no likey so much.

I will assist the boy, but it's different it's relaxing it's not so time consuming and I get to be the bad Momma and make Kraft Mac and cheese and the boy makes home made (fill in the blank).


I don't feel less than now, not like I did in my mid 20's. I believe it's the work I do and continue to do on me. OMG do I need a lot with all my RAWR RAWR RAWR and passion for things.

I can say when I am spoken to like I am stoopid or I am head patted it makes me boil, it's almost like wow where am I and it makes me laugh.


Thanks tantalizing for reminding me about the Momma part, that really got me to thinking a lot about gender *performance* and how only girls/women do dishes and boys/men work on cars.

I am glad I know about both.

[Julie]

I keep thinking about the question Snow posed: Is Femme your Gender?

I came out at 17 as Gay. I realized at 18 I was a Lesbian -- This was the 70's. My relationships were definitely gender misogynistic Butch/Femme relationships and I was clearly in Butch led relationships. I grew up!!!

I went through a feminist phase and retaliated against anything patriarchal and discovered once again, my Femme. I have held onto her and not let her go. Though, I did go through a Femme phase, where I didn't want to be classified as Femme, as the butches I knew (back then) thought the best Femme's were bimbo's. I couldn't play Bimbo Femme, even when I tried. However, I remained Femme.

I suppose Femme is my gender. I don't really connect with Lesbian, though I am and I (like Snow) hold onto my Dyke -- Being a Dyke is important to me. I am a Femme Dyke. And I am a Lesbian, in some odd sort of Sapphic historic way.

When I refer to myself, I am always Femme and sometimes Dyke. And definitely repeating myself... But I am processing this... It's been a long time for me since I came out. I haven't really ever had to analyze it, as I just did.

Signed Julie Femme Dyke who knows her Sapphic history.

[pinkgeek]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Who all here identifies with Femme as their gender?

I consider femme a part of my gender, but I balk against any one word encompassing me. I also don't care for boxes and labels which is what I feel like I get stuffed into when asked about my gender, presentation, etc. Maybe I'll go for fierce as my gender - that slides better under my skin.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by pinkgeek

I consider femme a part of my gender, but I balk against any one word encompassing me. I also don't care for boxes and labels which is what I feel like I get stuffed into when asked about my gender, presentation, etc. Maybe I'll go for fierce as my gender - that slides better under my skin.

i didn't realize it but i feel this way too.

i am just protective of my femme label.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Who all here identifies with Femme as their gender?

Not me....maybe it's coming out super late, but I still think of woman/female as my gender.

For me, gender has nothing to do with who I love or have sex with, or even how I live. For me, it's literally anatomical. I totally get that that's not the case for many people here....and that's all good in my book.

Femme, for me, is more about my sexuality.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by Martina

Is any of that real content about gender?

• wanting to devote your time and energy to pleasing another
• enjoying domestic chores (if only for the beloved other)
• being available to nurture, support, or instruct

The part that is gender specific other than the clothes is grooving upon the power dynamics embedded in gender. That is kink. Fetish. Whatever you want to call it.

I can get hot because the person I am with is butch. I can get hot because the person I am with has power. I do not conflate the two. It does not get me extra wet BECAUSE a masculine person has power over my more feminine self. Or it has like twice. It's not my kink. But it's a kink. And as such I respect it.

But bringing the conflation of power inequity with gender roles into the world as a "natural" way of relating -- that is sexism. Talking about women's roles and butches or masculine ID'd people's roles as if they are real things. Um no.

I was briefly with someone who had those ideas. We had been friends first and equals. I was shocked when it all came up in D/s. Stupid me. The fact is he no longer respected me as much the minute I went down for him. In his mind, bringing together power exchange with traditional gender roles MEANT disrespecting women. And that is what it has traditionally meant. I have an Egyptian friend who swears no, no, it's separate spheres, and both are respected. To which I say bullshit.

great post Martina.

You know I felt conflicted most of my life because I didn't fall into any traditional roles- not ever. I had one aunt that was typical June Cleaver type and waited on her family hand and foot. She took great pride in this. Another aunt was a go-go dancer that wore sequined bikini's and fishnet stockings and danced in a hanging cage. She had lots of boyfriends who bought her gifts, cleaned her house and treated her like a Queen. I wanted to be her but when I heard my mom and other family members gossip about her it made me feel stupid. I wanted to be a go-go queen. I didn;t want to cook and clean for a bunch of people who never reciprocated.

In school there were too many times when I heard, "You'll marry a nice man and he'll take care of you." or "Its just as easy to fall in love with a rich man then a poor man." such stupid bullshit. I didn't want anything to do with any of it.

So at a very young age I made my own money and people did things for me. If you wanted to date me you knew this about me and if you didn't like it I showed you the road. Later I tapped into femdom and things became more serious. I was much happier but I still had to deal with too much judgement about how my way of living wasn't normal. That I couldn't treat people like that and that women didn't act like I was. Meanwhile they lined up to serve me.

I spent way too many years with people trying to shove that great white lie down my throat. I admit that when I see a woman so dialed into that I question if she's really happy or trapped. I know its stupid and one sided because I expect that from someone else. I personally would love a butch wearing an apron and baking me cookies. Life would be perfect.

oh wait if I think about it I'd really like a June Cleaver sub femme wearing a cute little dress, cooking, cleaning and waiting on my hand and foot. It would bring out my masculine energy and I'd have to throw her down and fuck her. Damn I'm so sexist! lol

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Sachita

great post Martina.

You know I felt conflicted most of my life because I didn't fall into any traditional roles- not ever. I had one aunt that was typical June Cleaver type and waited on her family hand and foot. She took great pride in this. Another aunt was a go-go dancer that wore sequined bikini's and fishnet stockings and danced in a hanging cage. She had lots of boyfriends who bought her gifts, cleaned her house and treated her like a Queen. I wanted to be her but when I heard my mom and other family members gossip about her it made me feel stupid. I wanted to be a go-go queen. I didn;t want to cook and clean for a bunch of people who never reciprocated.

In school there were too many times when I heard, "You'll marry a nice man and he'll take care of you." or "Its just as easy to fall in love with a rich man then a poor man." such stupid bullshit. I didn't want anything to do with any of it.

So at a very young age I made my own money and people did things for me. If you wanted to date me you knew this about me and if you didn't like it I showed you the road. Later I tapped into femdom and things became more serious. I was much happier but I still had to deal with too much judgement about how my way of living wasn't normal. That I couldn't treat people like that and that women didn't act like I was. Meanwhile they lined up to serve me.

I spent way too many years with people trying to shove that great white lie down my throat. I admit that when I see a woman so dialed into that I question if she's really happy or trapped. I know its stupid and one sided because I expect that from someone else. I personally would love a butch wearing an apron and baking me cookies. Life would be perfect.

I know I can say this to you and you will not be like oh that fucking Snow here she goes, I know you will hear me.


You gotta let that go, the one sided assumption that if a woman is dialing into domestication or tasks that come to some form of care taking, or care giving they are trapped.

Here's why.


We're Doms if we want, need, expect this from a butch and we expect them to do it we have to release the one sided.

They are woman too (unless they are not) and the masculine appearance may be able to let you forget that but the assumption they are trapped could be made of them as well.

In BDSM/Kink we can't CAN NOT go into it with any kind of ism or gender role expectation, and we must check our isms ALL of them for us to be able to succesfully lead.


The image of a butch in an apron is hot, but I'd be pretty pissed if someone assumed she was doing it because it was forced or entrapment.


In real time we can have these convos with our girls/women/Femmes. Here too so we gotta make sure we aren't bringing that one sided machete especially when trying to attain a subject.

Make sense?

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I know I can say this to you and you will not be like oh that fucking Snow here she goes, I know you will hear me.


You gotta let that go, the one sided assumption that if a woman is dialing into domestication or tasks that come to some form of care taking, or care giving they are trapped.

Here's why.


We're Doms if we want, need, expect this from a butch and we expect them to do it we have to release the one sided.

They are woman too (unless they are not) and the masculine appearance may be able to let you forget that but the assumption they are trapped could be made of them as well.

In BDSM/Kink we can't CAN NOT go into it with any kind of ism or gender role expectation, and we must check our isms ALL of them for us to be able to succesfully lead.


The image of a butch in an apron is hot, but I'd be pretty pissed if someone assumed she was doing it because it was forced or entrapment.


In real time we can have these convos with our girls/women/Femmes. Here too so we gotta make sure we aren't bringing that one sided machete especially when trying to attain a subject.


Make sense?

Yes I get it and honestly I'm not really holding on it all any more. Of course I might always have that little voice in my head as I check myself. I don't feel I am caught up in gender per se but I could be.

And for me much of this is more about fetishism then anything else. I love role-fucking and anything that fucks the mind.

I think I'm ok here but I know what you mean and respect it.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Sachita

Yes I get it and honestly I'm not really holding on it all any more. Of course I might always have that little voice in my head as I check myself. I don't feel I am caught up in gender per se but I could be.

And for me much of this is more about fetishism then anything else. I love role-fucking and anything that fucks the mind.

I think I'm ok here but I know what you mean and respect it.

I am in favor of all things Fetish!

I can easily fetishsize all things vintage.

RAWR