"Stud" versus "Butch"

[Gemme]

Most of my thoughts have pretty much been covered, but to touch on a point Girl_on_Fire referenced in her OP, I have noticed that some of the younger generation of our community is using that term, and not related to the African American cultural connection.

I think it's interesting that the term is being adopted by a group that it may not normally have been associated with but I feel a tiny bit of hesitancy in that the original cultural connection may be lost along the way.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Most of my thoughts have pretty much been covered, but to touch on a point Girl_on_Fire referenced in her OP, I have noticed that some of the younger generation of our community is using that term, and not related to the African American cultural connection.

I think it's interesting that the term is being adopted by a group that it may not normally have been associated with but I feel a tiny bit of hesitancy in that the original cultural connection may be lost along the way.

Can you say A P P R O P R I A T I O N?

Gemme, maybe I should clarify? I am not saying you are appropriating. I do beleive there are instances when appropriation does happen. You get the goodies without the price that has been paid.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Can you say A P P R O P R I A T I O N?

Gemme, maybe I should clarify? I am not saying you are appropriating. I do beleive there are instances when appropriation does happen. You get the goodies without the price that has been paid.

Good, because I'm not claiming that term.

I can see how someone who does adopt this term might be appropriating.

[kittygrrl]

hmm...i don't think I ever have used this term ..however, i do understand it's used mostly as a way of expressing "buddy" or "hot-sexy-amazing"..but you shouldn't take for granted the person you are addressing will appreciate your greeting/endearment..especially, at this time of year..tip toeing thru the tulips, doesn't mean we shouldn't watch for the unwelcoming cowpie

[Massive]

For me personally, stud just isn't a term I'm familiar with or have ever heard being used here in the UK, so thank you to the OP for broaching the subject, I'm enjoying seeing this being discussed, as far as I'm concerned it's better to ask a question than to make assumptions or remain ignorant.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Dakarti [B

Back on topic...as with Mass., it's not a term I'm familiar with using in the 'gay' 'community' over here in UK. Sadly, it reminds me of a bio bloke who's a bit too full of himself and reckons he's a shit hot lover. I will be very happy to replace this image with a more positive one.[/B]

Originally Posted by Massive

For me personally, stud just isn't a term I'm familiar with or have ever heard being used here in the UK, so thank you to the OP for broaching the subject, I'm enjoying seeing this being discussed, as far as I'm concerned it's better to ask a question than to make assumptions or remain ignorant.

Actually 'Stud' is used in the UK, but perhaps not as widely as in the US. In the UK 'Stud' is also an ID that is similar to (but not synonymous with) 'Butch' in that it is used mainly by people who fall masculine of centre on the gender identity spectrum and it is primarily used by people of colour (as far as my experience goes).

This film was featured in the LGBT - BFI London film festival this past year.

[*Anya*]

I also encourage you to watch a documentary that is a few years old called The Aggressives.

It followed a group of multi-identified POC in New York City over a period of years.

It was an education for me for me about a part of our culture that I knew nothing about.

Many of those featured, did identify as Studs (also trans, butch, lesbian).

I watched it on Hulu but believe it is also Netflix streaming.

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Actually 'Stud' is used in the UK, but perhaps not as widely as in the US. In the UK 'Stud' is also an ID that is similar to (but not synonymous with) 'Butch' in that it is used mainly by people who fall masculine of centre on the gender identity spectrum and it is primarily used by people of colour (as far as my experience goes).

This film was featured in the LGBT - BFI London film festival this past year.

Just out of interest, where did you hear it in the UK and did you hear it often?

As I said above, I've never heard it in UK except as an almost perjorative for a big headed cis-guy/butch/genderqueer/trans-guy (apologies if my use of nomenclature is not considered 'standard'.). As a person who ids at genderqueer or that (clunky) phrase, masculine of centre I've never heard it used about myself or anyone like me regardless of colour or culture anywhere in the country...but then I'm a northerner and don't get to the Big cosmopolitan Smoke of London anymore; nor have I heard it in Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow or Newcastle either I'm not saying it's never used just that it must be a pretty exclusive minority. Maybe it's a south of Watford Gap thang.



ETA Yup, I have to own my clueless white privilege (never heard of such a thing until I joined up here; That's why I read some of the more educative threads here.

[Massive]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Actually 'Stud' is used in the UK, but perhaps not as widely as in the US. In the UK 'Stud' is also an ID that is similar to (but not synonymous with) 'Butch' in that it is used mainly by people who fall masculine of centre on the gender identity spectrum and it is primarily used by people of colour (as far as my experience goes).

This film was featured in the LGBT - BFI London film festival this past year.

Be that as it may, I have never heard the term used in the North of England, nor in Southern Scotland and I've been living in this area for my entire life ... And I've been an active member of my local gay scene the entire time. Remember, there are other places than London over here! Some of which have just as thriving a scene as there.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Can you say A P P R O P R I A T I O N?

Gemme, maybe I should clarify? I am not saying you are appropriating. I do beleive there are instances when appropriation does happen. You get the goodies without the price that has been paid.

Sometimes, though, "appropriating" is a way of subverting power dynamics in a cultural or social construct. Members of our community appropriate male pronouns. Gays and lesbians appropriate straight marriage rituals. And so on.

Sometimes appropriation is kind of thrilling.

Appropriation = using a name/label/title/id/term without "paying the price for the goodies"?

If I read this correctly then I suggest anyone under, say 50, possibly 60yrs old, shouldn't 'appropriate' queer, dyke, butch, femme, et alia, because they didn't pay the price alongside our older brothers and sisters fighting for visibility, the right not to have to hide who they/we were/are and a measure of equality way back in the day?

...or maybe I'm just being dense today?




Back on topic...as with Mass., it's not a term I'm familiar with using in the 'gay' 'community' over here in UK. Sadly, it reminds me of a bio bloke who's a bit too full of himself and reckons he's a shit hot lover. I will be very happy to replace this image with a more positive one.

I look forward to seeing what the name/label/title/id/other means in other places and/or cultures.

[DapperButch]

As I understand the term:

Originally Posted by IslandScout

Sometimes, though, "appropriating" is a way of subverting power dynamics in a cultural or social construct. Members of our community appropriate male pronouns. Gays and lesbians appropriate straight marriage rituals. And so on.

Sometimes appropriation is kind of thrilling.

The difference is that you are using the term/behaviours of a group that has more power than you do. That is why this would not be defined as appropriation.

Originally Posted by Daktari

Appropriation = using a name/label/title/id/term without "paying the price for the goodies"?

If I read this correctly then I suggest anyone under, say 50, possibly 60yrs old, shouldn't 'appropriate' queer, dyke, butch, femme, et alia, because they didn't pay the price alongside our older brothers and sisters fighting for visibility, the right not to have to hide who they/we were/are and a measure of equality way back in the day?

...or maybe I'm just being dense today?

This wouldn't be appropriation because it is the same group.

--------------

To me, this is yet another example of white privilege.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

As I understand the term:



The difference is that you are using the term/behaviours of a group that has more power than you do. That is why this would not be defined as appropriation.



This wouldn't be appropriation because it is the same group.

--------------

To me, this is yet another example of white privilege.

When someone who is not in the culture and uses that cultures labels, definitions, genders, traditions, etc etc it IS appropriation.

Sometimes I want to look at white folk and ask:

Really? you also want macha, stud, Pappi? Really?

Cause you don't own enough already?


Thanks Dapper for saying something.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

When someone who is not in the culture and uses that cultures labels, definitions, genders, traditions, etc etc it IS appropriation.

Sometimes I want to look at white folk and ask:

Really? you also want macha, stud, Pappi? Really?

Cause you don't own enough already?


Thanks Dapper for saying something.

I completely agree with you and

I feel like a younger generation of queers (regardless of race) adopting an ID like 'Stud' has less of an icky appropriation feeling than if they were to co-opt 'Macha', 'Pappi' or 'Aggressive' because while 'Stud' has historically been used by queer POC it feels less connected to a single group or culture. 'Aggressive', 'Macha' and 'Pappi' would feel like really icky appropriation to me, because those IDs feel very specific and very closely tied to culture, to me.

'Stud' (noun) and stud (adjective) crosses a few cultures and common uses. It's not uncommon, for example, for it to be used as a descriptor for many different male sub-groups. Just like 'Butch' is commonly used as both an identity and a descriptor in gay-male and heterosexual male communities.

But, I do come from a place of white privilege and I recognize my feelings on this could be an example of that privilege, I'm completely open to hearing if people feel differently.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

Sometimes, though, "appropriating" is a way of subverting power dynamics in a cultural or social construct. Members of our community appropriate male pronouns. Gays and lesbians appropriate straight marriage rituals. And so on.

Sometimes appropriation is kind of thrilling.

Sorry been gone all day and this just hit me wrong.
*I* being a male in a female body have *appropriated* nothing. I am who I am, and I am Male. I'm sorry if this doesn't fit with the whole white privilege thing, but it is true none the less. Sometimes I wish folks would put away the microscope and learn that there are whole societies that live just fine, minus the privilege. If the UK isn't as knowledgeable about Studs, Aggressive, and other Pronouns, I would suggest it may be due to culture. Again, Culture is the apt usage of Pronouns that people use to express who they are to a society that hold them at arms length, with privilege.