"Stud" versus "Butch"

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Can you say A P P R O P R I A T I O N?

Gemme, maybe I should clarify? I am not saying you are appropriating. I do beleive there are instances when appropriation does happen. You get the goodies without the price that has been paid.

Sometimes, though, "appropriating" is a way of subverting power dynamics in a cultural or social construct. Members of our community appropriate male pronouns. Gays and lesbians appropriate straight marriage rituals. And so on.

Sometimes appropriation is kind of thrilling.

Appropriation = using a name/label/title/id/term without "paying the price for the goodies"?

If I read this correctly then I suggest anyone under, say 50, possibly 60yrs old, shouldn't 'appropriate' queer, dyke, butch, femme, et alia, because they didn't pay the price alongside our older brothers and sisters fighting for visibility, the right not to have to hide who they/we were/are and a measure of equality way back in the day?

...or maybe I'm just being dense today?




Back on topic...as with Mass., it's not a term I'm familiar with using in the 'gay' 'community' over here in UK. Sadly, it reminds me of a bio bloke who's a bit too full of himself and reckons he's a shit hot lover. I will be very happy to replace this image with a more positive one.

I look forward to seeing what the name/label/title/id/other means in other places and/or cultures.

[DapperButch]

As I understand the term:

Originally Posted by IslandScout

Sometimes, though, "appropriating" is a way of subverting power dynamics in a cultural or social construct. Members of our community appropriate male pronouns. Gays and lesbians appropriate straight marriage rituals. And so on.

Sometimes appropriation is kind of thrilling.

The difference is that you are using the term/behaviours of a group that has more power than you do. That is why this would not be defined as appropriation.

Originally Posted by Daktari

Appropriation = using a name/label/title/id/term without "paying the price for the goodies"?

If I read this correctly then I suggest anyone under, say 50, possibly 60yrs old, shouldn't 'appropriate' queer, dyke, butch, femme, et alia, because they didn't pay the price alongside our older brothers and sisters fighting for visibility, the right not to have to hide who they/we were/are and a measure of equality way back in the day?

...or maybe I'm just being dense today?

This wouldn't be appropriation because it is the same group.

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To me, this is yet another example of white privilege.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

As I understand the term:



The difference is that you are using the term/behaviours of a group that has more power than you do. That is why this would not be defined as appropriation.



This wouldn't be appropriation because it is the same group.

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To me, this is yet another example of white privilege.

When someone who is not in the culture and uses that cultures labels, definitions, genders, traditions, etc etc it IS appropriation.

Sometimes I want to look at white folk and ask:

Really? you also want macha, stud, Pappi? Really?

Cause you don't own enough already?


Thanks Dapper for saying something.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

When someone who is not in the culture and uses that cultures labels, definitions, genders, traditions, etc etc it IS appropriation.

Sometimes I want to look at white folk and ask:

Really? you also want macha, stud, Pappi? Really?

Cause you don't own enough already?


Thanks Dapper for saying something.

I completely agree with you and

I feel like a younger generation of queers (regardless of race) adopting an ID like 'Stud' has less of an icky appropriation feeling than if they were to co-opt 'Macha', 'Pappi' or 'Aggressive' because while 'Stud' has historically been used by queer POC it feels less connected to a single group or culture. 'Aggressive', 'Macha' and 'Pappi' would feel like really icky appropriation to me, because those IDs feel very specific and very closely tied to culture, to me.

'Stud' (noun) and stud (adjective) crosses a few cultures and common uses. It's not uncommon, for example, for it to be used as a descriptor for many different male sub-groups. Just like 'Butch' is commonly used as both an identity and a descriptor in gay-male and heterosexual male communities.

But, I do come from a place of white privilege and I recognize my feelings on this could be an example of that privilege, I'm completely open to hearing if people feel differently.

[Metro]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

I completely agree with you and

I feel like a younger generation of queers (regardless of race) adopting an ID like 'Stud' has less of an icky appropriation feeling than if they were to co-opt 'Macha', 'Pappi' or 'Aggressive' because while 'Stud' has historically been used by queer POC it feels less connected to a single group or culture. 'Aggressive', 'Macha' and 'Pappi' would feel like really icky appropriation to me, because those IDs feel very specific and very closely tied to culture, to me.

'Stud' (noun) and stud (adjective) crosses a few cultures and common uses. It's not uncommon, for example, for it to be used as a descriptor for many different male sub-groups. Just like 'Butch' is commonly used as both an identity and a descriptor in gay-male and heterosexual male communities.

But, I do come from a place of white privilege and I recognize my feelings on this could be an example of that privilege, I'm completely open to hearing if people feel differently.

When newly out in the lgbtqi community I did not know or understand the cultural ties to the ID of "Stud" -- because, like Sparkle, I came from a place of white privilege. I knew it only as a descriptor of male sub-groups. Now I know differently... and also agree with Sparkle that being open to hearing other perspectives and feelings is a good thing. Diversity is one of the aspects of living in a large metropolitan area that I absolutely LOVE -- because these different perspectives enrich one and all.

[Daywalker]

I was born and raised in the Oakland Bay Area.

I feel this was geographically to my advantage as far as
exposure to a more diverse world. That does not
change the privilege factors attached to being
White but it sure as hell changed the
way I see things as a result.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

Sometimes, though, "appropriating" is a way of subverting power dynamics in a cultural or social construct. Members of our community appropriate male pronouns. Gays and lesbians appropriate straight marriage rituals. And so on.

Sometimes appropriation is kind of thrilling.

Sorry been gone all day and this just hit me wrong.
*I* being a male in a female body have *appropriated* nothing. I am who I am, and I am Male. I'm sorry if this doesn't fit with the whole white privilege thing, but it is true none the less. Sometimes I wish folks would put away the microscope and learn that there are whole societies that live just fine, minus the privilege. If the UK isn't as knowledgeable about Studs, Aggressive, and other Pronouns, I would suggest it may be due to culture. Again, Culture is the apt usage of Pronouns that people use to express who they are to a society that hold them at arms length, with privilege.