Masculine of Center -- the term

[nowandthen]

I am involved in these conversations in many places and in my own life. When I first heard the term MoC I too was "What center" but then I had more than one conversation in-person and on-line. I agree that for me it is not a umbrella term, but I do agree that it is a identity many I know use. I looked up the history of the term Butch and below is one example.

"Prior to the middle of the 20th century in Western culture, homosexual societies were mostly underground or secret, which makes it difficult to determine how long butch and femme roles have been practiced by women. Photographs exist of butch-femme couples in the decade of 1910–1920 in the United States; they were then called "transvestites""

All the terms we have come to know or use for ourselves come out of a medical industry supporting difference through bad science. They come from a White Eurocentric Heteronormative relationship to bodies and the need to gender and define those bodies and identities for markers to police.

One of the struggles that we all come back to is the lack of language and the attachment to what is already in the lexicon. We will never all come into agreement in my life time, but the power to name is fundamental to self, class and race always impact the relationship to power and naming. An example is the letters LGBT , I write them TBLG why, because the LGBT Power/Money players do not have any authority in my life. No one is in-charge, yet money and power seem to give folks the ability to say who and what community is and those of us outside of that fight for visibility. I am not pro-assimilation, I am a prison abolitionist, I am not a morning person, I am white, queer and masculine only because of the need for others comfort, because when I say masculine or butch it is and will never the same as someone else.

I was at the community meeting at the last BV, I participated because difference should not mean to discount, judge, or name others. This is hard and painful work for me and the communities I move in. I have an intimate relationship with the pain of being a body marked as Butch by lesbians and the larger world. What is painful is the knowledge that I was told more times than I can count that how I looked was not dyke, If I wanted a man I date a man, the 70's-90's brought us more clarity on the body, sex, and identity so yes the expansion of knowledge allows for change, I for one have a hard time with change, I know that those naming themselves MoC have no more legitimacy than those called butch to the process of naming others. So maybe the work is to name ourselves and give others the same right.

[Medusa]

Hmm.

Dude, I appreciate you asking about "Feminine of Center" and how that would feel to me.

In short, I don't want it.

I will tell you that Jack and I have had multiple conversations in our home about the continued expansion and redefinition of "Butch" and "Masculine of Center" feels like another piece of that expansion and redefinition.

I'm not Butch or "Masculine of Center" but the term doesn't sit all that well with me, mainly because I have huge issues with what I feel is the erasure of something super specific so that everyone's brand of "way of being" can feel included. Now, I will own that there is probably some privilege in there somewhere but, for the most part, I think that having a "center" when it comes to gender implies that there might be a baseline.
(eta: and not intending to imply that everyone shouldn't be included, but I think we don't have to remove someone else's identity so that ours can be included)

In my mind, there isnt. There may be a super patriarchal norm. There may be a historically accepted paperdoll. There is not, however, an agreed-upon center of gender in the Butch/Femme world, in the Gay world, or even in the straight world.

I get the drive to examine the labels that we've inherited. I do think there is a time when we also have to accept that some folks in our community DO accept the labels and even embrace them as "home".
That's some subversive shit!

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Hmm.

Dude, I appreciate you asking about "Feminine of Center" and how that would feel to me.

In short, I don't want it.

I will tell you that Jack and I have had multiple conversations in our home about the continued expansion and redefinition of "Butch" and "Masculine of Center" feels like another piece of that expansion and redefinition.

I'm not Butch or "Masculine of Center" but the term doesn't sit all that well with me, mainly because I have huge issues with what I feel is the erasure of something super specific so that everyone's brand of "way of being" can feel included. Now, I will own that there is probably some privilege in there somewhere but, for the most part, I think that having a "center" when it comes to gender implies that there might be a baseline.
(eta: and not intending to imply that everyone shouldn't be included, but I think we don't have to remove someone else's identity so that ours can be included)

In my mind, there isnt. There may be a super patriarchal norm. There may be a historically accepted paperdoll. There is not, however, an agreed-upon center of gender in the Butch/Femme world, in the Gay world, or even in the straight world.

I get the drive to examine the labels that we've inherited. I do think there is a time when we also have to accept that some folks in our community DO accept the labels and even embrace them as "home".
That's some subversive shit!

While I freely admit I don't get it, and the it being the word "center", I do not have an issue with anyone who may claim MoC as an identifier. It isn't up to me to police that, understand it yes, yet if this is a term someone wants to identify with, more power to them, just please enlighten me about what it means.

[macele]

i've never been just totally in like of lesbian, dyke, queer, etc. we need labels for others and ourselves. i'm older now lol. i think that's the difference for me. i'm not looking for words/labels to identify with. i'm ok with change, ... it's a must at times. i'd make a guess and say that somebody didn't like butch, ... it felt outdated to them, ... and they wanted something to connect with, new. i hope it worked. sincerely.

[Medusa]

I'd like to submit too that "mascunlinity" may not define some Butch women who view their way of being, not as "masculine", but just as a Butch brand of Feminine.

[Parker]

I dont like it.

Part of that is from what others have stated - the whole, "what is the 'center'?" arguments, as well as the inclusion/exclusion arguments; and, of course, the hierarchy of it butch - that's been around forever.

But mostly, I really hate when people try to label me or tell me who I am.

I get that enough from straight people who dont understand what or who a butch woman is - hell, I was labeled as "whatever" just the other day by a woman in the store who first said, "that woman" then changed her answer to "that man" and then just decided on "whatever" - that feels lovely, let me tell you.

So whether it is masculine of center, cis, he/hy, etc., or even "whatever," I dont like when someone else thrusts a label onto me for any reason; and that's what this feels like: someone other than me describing who I am.

Parker no likey.

[aishah]

some background on the term and about b. cole, the woman-identified butch who coined it:

http://oaklandlocal.com/article/quee...wn-boi-project

[aishah]

okay, i lied, one more quote...

And here is one of the biggest problems I see: in many white spaces of resistance, the focus becomes a question of naming something and how proximate that name is to the core of what is being named. The prioritization of the name/naming does not allow for a meaningful engagement with the work that is actually being done under that name. This is one of the most insidious products of (middle class) white culture, the desire to name people and communities in a way that speaks for itself, without having to see what has led to the naming and what are the effects of the actions of those named. It is with this logic that major multinational corporations can carry mantras of “do no evil” and “spreading progress” while simultaneously wreaking economic, political, and social havoc across the globe. There is so much more than what’s in a name.

The term “masculine of center” (MoC) was coined in a progressive, social justice-oriented community of color that seeks to find sustainable and ethical representations and practices of alternative masculinities that can contribute to the empowerment of marginalized genders (including women, girls, young boys, and transpeople). Mincing words between maleness/masculinity/center/margins/etc. distracts from the work that goes on under the label of MoC. o do so takes away from the effects of the groups who take on this label, and the ramifications are especially harmful when such careless speech comes from a respected queer theorist. Additionally, identity and labeling in many communities of color do not usually take on the same priority that labeling takes on in white spaces I’ve observed. It appears to be an epistemological priority of whiteness to be able to identify, categorize, and manage expectations accordingly. Even trying to break identities apart is something that can only be fully carried out in white spaces, where intersections are not something that are necessarily viscerally acknowledged and understood on the day-to-day level (making the statement “masculinity is not the most important vector” an incomprehensible thought in many POC spaces, as it requires imagining that parts of ourselves must always reign supreme over others). To fixate on language, on finding the best and most perfect way to describe something, is to play into dynamics of truth and knowledge production that often marginalize and delegitimize the complicated relationships to resistance that exist within communities of color.

from the article that was posted in the race and racism thread (this is the part directly following the part martina quoted).

[Ginger]

yeah, I hear what Corkey and Medusa are saying in different ways, questioning what is "the center."

It's like we used to say "a spectrum" of identities, an arc, and now the ends of the arc are touching, and it's a circle. Without a "center," just has a circle has an infinite number of sides.

It's confusing, though. I often use the term, "stereotypically" male or female or "culturally defined" as male or female, masculate or feminine.

It's like I don't want to get in trouble for making myself the arbiter of where that center lies.