Masculine of Center -- the term

[aishah]

butch voices' website clearly says

"What identities are under the BUTCH Voices umbrella?
Butch, Stud, Aggressive (AG), Macha, Dom, Tomboi, genderqueer, two-spirit, Trans men who identify as Masculine of Center and all other similar identities."

the first descriptor on the list is "butch." "masculine of center" is added onto a list of identities. to me, the term is self-selecting - like queer. if i hated the term queer and didn't want it used in reference to me, BUT it was commonly understood that queer spaces were inclusive of me as a same-gender-loving person and/or those spaces said "we welcome queer people, same-gender loving people, lesbians, gays..." - at that point, to me, it is semantics. masculine of center applies to anyone who wants to identify that way. some people use it to be inclusive of butches, studs, aggressives, etc. when speaking. not everyone likes it. not everyone likes gender non-conforming, but if i say the words "gender non-conforming" people will more or less get that i mean folks who transgress gender boundaries and that is inclusive of trans and butch people. it doesn't mean everyone has to like it or use it in reference to themselves. welcome to alphabet soup land - everyone constantly bitches about which word to use.

this term was also used before butch voices chose to adopt it, and is used in many communities outside of butch voices, and in my understanding, this thread was to talk about the term itself, not butch voices. if a lot of butches don't want butch voices to use the term...that is an internal conversation to have in the butch voices community. but that doesn't have any bearing on how the term is used outside of butch voices.

i've been researching the history of the arguments over the term, and i am repeatedly struck by the fact that this is a term that is predominantly meaningful in poc queer communities, and many qpoc feel alienated in white lesbian, queer, and trans* spaces, and almost all of the backlash against the term has happened AFTER predominantly white spaces have started using it in an effort to be more inclusive of qpoc, and the majority of the backlash is from white folks.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by aishah

butch voices' website clearly says

"What identities are under the BUTCH Voices umbrella?
Butch, Stud, Aggressive (AG), Macha, Dom, Tomboi, genderqueer, two-spirit, Trans men who identify as Masculine of Center and all other similar identities."

the first descriptor on the list is "butch." "masculine of center" is added onto a list of identities. to me, the term is self-selecting - like queer. if i hated the term queer and didn't want it used in reference to me, BUT it was commonly understood that queer spaces were inclusive of me as a same-gender-loving person and/or those spaces said "we welcome queer people, same-gender loving people, lesbians, gays..." - at that point, to me, it is semantics. masculine of center applies to anyone who wants to identify that way. some people use it to be inclusive of butches, studs, aggressives, etc. when speaking. not everyone likes it. not everyone likes gender non-conforming, but if i say the words "gender non-conforming" people will more or less get that i mean folks who transgress gender boundaries and that is inclusive of trans and butch people. it doesn't mean everyone has to like it or use it in reference to themselves. welcome to alphabet soup land - everyone constantly bitches about which word to use.

this term was also used before butch voices chose to adopt it, and is used in many communities outside of butch voices, and in my understanding, this thread was to talk about the term itself, not butch voices. if a lot of butches don't want butch voices to use the term...that is an internal conversation to have in the butch voices community. but that doesn't have any bearing on how the term is used outside of butch voices.

i've been researching the history of the arguments over the term, and i am repeatedly struck by the fact that this is a term that is predominantly meaningful in poc queer communities, and many qpoc feel alienated in white lesbian, queer, and trans* spaces, and almost all of the backlash against the term has happened AFTER predominantly white spaces have started using it in an effort to be more inclusive of qpoc, and the majority of the backlash is from white folks.

While I was responding to this, my browser crashed, which gave me a chance to think about whether I really wanted to respond in the way that I was and I do not.

Perhaps I am sorely misunderstanding you, but this post of yours felt like you just told me that I am bitching about semantics and if I dont like the term masculine of center then not only should I just not use it, but I should just suck it up when others use it to describe me because we ALL have to deal with that.

Or as Monica Gellar once said, "Welcome to the real world, it sucks."

If I understood you correctly, you could see why that could be a little off-putting for a woman who is a butch to hear a woman who is not a butch say that about a term that is sometimes used to describe butches.

It also sounded like you told me what I could and could not talk about in this thread and forum, re: Butch Voices. To clarify, I spoke about BV in part because speaking about BV provided what I felt was a relevant example to my dislike at using that term as an umbrella for all of us to sit under, happily.



Someone created a thread about the term masculine of center and asked us what we all thought and felt about the term, do we like it, would we use it, etc and I was responding to that.

But I dont seem to be making my point clear about how my objections are not based on what terms POC do or do not use or even about whether others use the term, masculine of center to include POC in their writings, organizations, etc.; my objections stem from people using this term to describe ME without my consent. Not POC, not people who like the term, ME.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Parker

Perhaps I am sorely misunderstanding you, but this post of yours felt like you just told me that I am bitching about semantics and if I dont like the term masculine of center then not only should I just not use it, but I should just suck it up when others use it to describe me because we ALL have to deal with that.

Or as Monica Gellar once said, "Welcome to the real world, it sucks."

If I understood you correctly, you could see why that could be a little off-putting for a woman who is a butch to hear a woman who is not a butch say that about a term that is sometimes used to describe butches.

It also sounded like you told me what I could and could not talk about in this thread and forum, re: Butch Voices. To clarify, I spoke about BV in part because speaking about BV provided what I felt was a relevant example to my dislike at using that term as an umbrella for all of us to sit under, happily.

no, i was not attempting to tell you what you could and could not talk about and what you could and could not take offense to.

i was attempting to provide another perspective in this thread in which the predominant view has been that "masculine of center" is a bad term, and most of the discussion has been by people outside of the community in which masculine of center was coined/is used.

i accept that you don't want the term used in reference to you. i'm not trying to police what you can and cannot post about. i apologize if it came off that way.

yes, in a way, i am saying "this is the real world, get used to it" - because it sucks and it is still good to have these arguments but the reality is there has NEVER been a term in lgbt/queer/butch/femme/insert label here history that has made anybody happy or been unproblematic. that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it at all. i just...think there should be an element of realism, which is, every single conversation about labels in the history of the world, and this site, has resulted in disagreement. you don't have to agree with me that people should get used to that, i just think it's helpful to point out that that's the nature of language. i'm not saying anyone has to agree. your mileage may vary.

i am really, really sorry if i came off as directive. that wasn't my intention and i fucked up.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by aishah

no, i was not attempting to tell you what you could and could not talk about and what you could and could not take offense to.

i was attempting to provide another perspective in this thread in which the predominant view has been that "masculine of center" is a bad term, and most of the discussion has been by people outside of the community in which masculine of center was coined/is used.

i accept that you don't want the term used in reference to you. i'm not trying to police what you can and cannot post about. i apologize if it came off that way.

yes, in a way, i am saying "this is the real world, get used to it" - because it sucks and it is still good to have these arguments but the reality is there has NEVER been a term in lgbt/queer/butch/femme/insert label here history that has made anybody happy or been unproblematic. that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it at all. i just...think there should be an element of realism, which is, every single conversation about labels in the history of the world, and this site, has resulted in disagreement. you don't have to agree with me that people should get used to that, i just think it's helpful to point out that that's the nature of language. i'm not saying anyone has to agree. your mileage may vary.

i am really, really sorry if i came off as directive. that wasn't my intention and i fucked up.

Thanks for coming back and clarifying.

For the record, I dont think it's necessarily a bad term; but I, personally wouldnt use it to describe myself.

To be honest, I would object to any term that anyone would use to describe me when I have not consented to being described in that way. For me, it isnt the term (any term, not just MoC), it is the actions of those who might use it.

[Martina]

I would just like to reiterate that while masculinity has always been a characteristic of butches, transmen, generqueer and others, it has not necessarily been the defining characteristic.

Making it the defining quality makes me wanna urp. I LIKE masculinity. I think it is HOT. Do not get me wrong. But if it is the defining quality of butches, for example, that makes everything else that butches are secondary or individual qualities, not as noteworthy somehow.

It encourages a hyper awareness and valorization of masculinity. That's not where I'd go if it were my ID, my umbrella term.

Isn't that already a kind of bone of contention among some members of the groups covered by the term? So to make it part of the umbrella term pretty much decides the issue -- in favor of the folks who foreground masculine gender presentation as part of their ID.

That to me is an issue that might also be generational. African American butches of MY generation often did their nails and wore earrings -- the dangly kind. I am serious. Lots of Black butches in my day had some interesting combinations of masculine and feminine going on in their gender presentation. Still do.

ANd seriously, as an older person, some of the least pleasing things I have witnessed among younger folks has been when they have worked a lot too hard on being masculine rather than being who they are in all their glory.